billvon 3,107 #151 March 11, 2009 > you seem to want to feel superior to those who have to do this > work - why is that? Personally, I am superior to them in terms of my employability, because I can do more valuable work than the guy at the McDonald's drive through window. I can make companies a lot of money by designing chargers, cellphones, satellite communications systems etc. That, of course, does not mean that I am inherently better than they are. It just means I am worth more to some companies because of my skills. Should those people decide to get the education that they need to be valuable to companies, then they should have every expectation of making as much as I do. Until then, they should expect to make minimum wage as they use their minimum skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
loumeinhart 0 #152 March 12, 2009 Quote ten dishwashers then no longer claim government benefits for them or their family dependants Right because it's not their fault they started a family on minimum wage Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryzflies 0 #153 March 12, 2009 Quote> you seem to want to feel superior to those who have to do this > work - why is that? Personally, I am superior to them in terms of my employability, because I can do more valuable work than the guy at the McDonald's drive through window. I can make companies a lot of money by designing chargers, cellphones, satellite communications systems etc. That, of course, does not mean that I am inherently better than they are. It just means I am worth more to some companies because of my skills. Should those people decide to get the education that they need to be valuable to companies, then they should have every expectation of making as much as I do. Until then, they should expect to make minimum wage as they use their minimum skills. How about those CEOs that made the decisions that drove companies like WaMu, AIG, etc. into dire straits. How much are they worth?If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
loumeinhart 0 #154 March 12, 2009 They are worth what the company/shareholders pay. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
loumeinhart 0 #155 March 12, 2009 Do you think a CEO should be paid minimun wage? No you don't. So what should they be paid? Throw me a dollar amount.. tell us what a ceo should really be paid... You can't, thank you Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #156 March 12, 2009 Quote> you seem to want to feel superior to those who have to do this > work - why is that? Personally, I am superior to them in terms of my employability, because I can do more valuable work than the guy at the McDonald's drive through window. I can make companies a lot of money by designing chargers, cellphones, satellite communications systems etc. That, of course, does not mean that I am inherently better than they are. It just means I am worth more to some companies because of my skills. Should those people decide to get the education that they need to be valuable to companies, then they should have every expectation of making as much as I do. Until then, they should expect to make minimum wage as they use their minimum skills. Awesome post. I can expand this further. Billvon (who, in my honest opinion, probably has more sheer intellectual firepower than anyone I've ever known) is a scarce resource performing a valuable role. There are less jobs for someone like Bill than there are for someone who digs ditches. Bill's skills are narrowly tailored. I couldn't do Bill's job. Despite my education and intellect I'd be worthless to Bill's employer. Similarly, Bill would be far less valuable than me at my job (though I think engineers make the best pure legal minds) because he lacks the training and education necessary for it. But bill and I have something in common - we can both dig ditches (though bill,s would withstand an 8.1 shaker and probably be straight). Because ditch digging is fundsmentally unskilled. Unskilled labor is not worth nearly as much as skilled labor. It is that simple. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,107 #157 March 12, 2009 >How about those CEOs that made the decisions that drove companies >like WaMu, AIG, etc. into dire straits. How much are they worth? Depends on what their skills are and how they benefit the company. Someone who fails to make any money during a bubble is probably sub-par. Someone who fails to make money during the worst economic disaster in nearly a century may actually be doing better than average - and may be a good person to hang onto. Or they may not, in which case they get the boot. Let's turn it around. Let's take the current CEO of Ford. This evil, overpaid guy forced UAW workers to give up some of their benefits. As a result, Ford will likely survive. That means he kept 230,000 people working and employed at Ford, and at least four times that working as suppliers, independent retailers, advertising companies and the like. Most of these people will be able to keep their houses and send their kids to school. How much is it worth to keep a million people employed, keep billions of dollars of market valuation and keep people's IRA's intact? How much should Ford pay the guy that made that happen? Was their decision to get someone like that and pay him $2 million a year (and $4 million in bonuses) worth it? Or would they have been better served by that guy in the McDonald's window, who might have made his minimum wage for a few weeks until Ford folded for a lack of leadership? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #158 March 12, 2009 QuoteUntil then, they should expect to make minimum wage as they use their minimum skills. we're not disagreeing that there should be different pay rates for different workers - just that the minimum wage should be increased to a 'fair' level have you put any thought into the macro economic results i outline in my op?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #159 March 12, 2009 Quote Right because it's not their fault they started a family on minimum wage this isn't a moral debate (you appear to think that everyone working on minimum wage should be sterilized). this is an economic debate. you haven't answered my question about whether government benefits will decrease with an increase in the minimum wage? and remember all those with family dependants didn't necessarily 'start' themstay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #160 March 12, 2009 Quote the minimum wage should be increased to a 'fair' level I think the current minimum wage should still apply for many jobs like working at a sunglass hut in the middle of the mall, but I've seen many good grown ass men with families HAVE to break there backs working the docks, cutting 24" concrete with 50 pound handheld saws, and tearing off roof shingles in 100 degree heat 87% humidity on an 8 pitch walking 40 yards UP and 40 yards Down with 50 lbs on their shoulders all day long with a 30 min break all for under 60 bucks a day minus taxes so that people can eat, shit and drive on a nice paved road so that they won't damage their Beamer on the way back to their nice dry house so that they can lay on their ass and marvel over how great they are because they actually believe they are responsible for being born a little more priveleged in a great Country they had no part in creating....$1100 a month? It's all a bunch of horse shit... 2 bucks more an hour for these hard labor jobs is not that much to ask and it will go along way for these people....that's still only like $17,000/yr minus taxes....big deal.Seriously...it's all crap...it boggles my mind beyond all infinite blackhole bullshit!Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
klingeme 1 #161 March 12, 2009 QuoteQuoteWe will always need floors to be swept, trash to be taken out, dishes to be washed. i agree that for some considerable time (until the robots do the work) manual/menial work will have to be done by real people. you seem to want to feel superior to those who have to do this work - why is that? I don't need (or want) to feel superior them but I do need to be paid more for the work I do. Mark Klingelhoefer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
klingeme 1 #162 March 12, 2009 Quote Quote the minimum wage should be increased to a 'fair' level I think the current minimum wage should still apply for many jobs like working at a sunglass hut in the middle of the mall, but I've seen many good grown ass men with families HAVE to break there backs working the docks, cutting 24" concrete with 50 pound handheld saws, and tearing off roof shingles in 100 degree heat 87% humidity on an 8 pitch walking 40 yards UP and 40 yards Down with 50 lbs on their shoulders all day long with a 30 min break all for under 60 bucks a day minus taxes so that people can eat, shit and drive on a nice paved road so that they won't damage their Beamer on the way back to their nice dry house so that they can lay on their ass and marvel over how great they are because they actually believe they are responsible for being born a little more priveleged in a great Country they had no part in creating....$1100 a month? It's all a bunch of horse shit... 2 bucks more an hour for these hard labor jobs is not that much to ask and it will go along way for these people....that's still only like $17,000/yr minus taxes....big deal.Seriously...it's all crap...it boggles my mind beyond all infinite blackhole bullshit! I agree 100%. These people should not be paid Minimum wage. This does not mean the minimum wage should increase. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #163 March 12, 2009 Quote I don't need (or want) to feel superior them but I do need to be paid more for the work I do. And they need to be paid more than 50 bucks a day...especially any hard labor employees that make it possible for everyone else to get to their pointless and often selfcentered jobs like sitting in a cubicle and bitching all day long on dropzone.com about how you only have 50K in your savings, and bragging how you didn't do shit all day.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #164 March 12, 2009 Quote agree 100%. These people should not be paid Minimum wage. This does not mean the minimum wage should increase. Ok...I didn't see this response before my last rant.....So now what? Minmum Wage (Economy 2007) - $7.25/hr -for jobs like sunglass hut Medium Minimum Wage (Regular Unleaded 2009) - $8.75/hr - for jobs like heavy duty dock workers Maximum Minimum wage ( premium Unleaded 2009) - $10/hr - for jobs that improve infrastructure and cause employees to ache 24/7 - Health care mandatory either by employer, government or both. how's that for starters....Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
klingeme 1 #165 March 12, 2009 Quote Quote agree 100%. These people should not be paid Minimum wage. This does not mean the minimum wage should increase. Ok...I didn't see this response before my last rant.....So now what? Minmum Wage (Economy 2007) - $7.25/hr -for jobs like sunglass hut Medium Minimum Wage (Regular Unleaded 2009) - $8.75/hr - for jobs like heavy duty dock workers Maximum Minimum wage ( premium Unleaded 2009) - $10/hr - for jobs that improve infrastructure and cause employees to ache 24/7 - Health care mandatory either by employer, government or both. how's that for starters.... No problem with the rant....I should have carified more in my first post. I think you're onto something there.....I didn't have time to crunch the numbers, but those look about right. edited to add For the people that are satisfied to be McWorkers for their entire life (not managers, but working the drive thru window) and not better themselves, it is alright that they can not afford to buy a house, drive a fancy car, have a big screen TV and Cable. That is was public transportation is for, and the other things, while we think they are necessities, are really luxuries that not everyone NEEDS to live. If you want those things, get an education (High School, College, Trade School, Internship, Mentorship, Apprenticeship) and earn these things. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #166 March 12, 2009 Quote I think you're onto something there.....I didn't have time to crunch the numbers, but those look about right. Looks like I might have to boost those numbers up a little... Quote For the people that are satisfied to be McWorkers for their entire life (not managers, but working the drive thru window) and not better themselves, it is alright that they can not afford to buy a house, drive a fancy car, have a big screen TV and Cable. That is was public transportation is for, and the other things, while we think they are necessities, are really luxuries that not everyone NEEDS to live. If you want those things, get an education (High School, College, Trade School, Internship, Mentorship, Apprenticeship) and earn these things. Yes...but this has nothin to do with a fair wage or the majority of people who are just good decent folks who work hard and are happy with a modest life and not constantly wanting more more more...or those good people that recently lost great jobs who also deserve a fair wage....at least.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #167 March 12, 2009 QuoteI agree 100%. These people should not be paid Minimum wage. This does not mean the minimum wage should increase. that's not what the economic figures say... QuoteIn recent decades, the minimum wage floor has fallen, dragging down average real wages as well. The real value of the minimum wage peaked in 1968 at $7.92 per hour (in 2000 dollars). Since then, worker productivity went up, but wages went down. Productivity grew 74.2 percent between 1968 and 2000, but hourly wages for average workers fell 3 percent, adjusting for inflation. Real wages for minimum wage workers--two-thirds of whom are adults--fell 35 percent. If wages had kept pace with rising productivity since 1968, the average hourly wage would have been $24.56 in 2000, rather than $13.74. The minimum wage would be $13.80--not $5.15. Profits also went up, but wages went down. Domestic corporate profits rose 64 percent since 1968, adjusting for inflation. The retail trade industry employs more than half the nation's hourly employees paid at or below minimum wage. Retail profits jumped even higher than profits generally, skyrocketing 158 percent since 1968. The minimum wage would be $13.02 if had kept pace with domestic profits and $20.46 if it had risen with retail profits. CEO pay went up, but workers' wages went down. In 1980, the average CEO at a major corporation made as much as 97 minimum wage workers. In 2000, they made as much as 1,223 minimum wage workers. http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0829-08.htmstay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,107 #168 March 12, 2009 >just that the minimum wage should be increased to a 'fair' level I think there should BE no minimum wage. Let people be paid what they are worth. If there is someone out there who is not capable of anything beyond pushing a broom, it's better to hire him for low $$ than to get a Roomba (because a Roomba is cheaper than a guy making $30,000 a year) and leave him unemployed. >have you put any thought into the macro economic results i outline in my op? Yes. Increasing minimum wage will result in fewer people having jobs, thus increasing the load on the unemployment system. Increasing minimum wage will require companies to either move offshore or raise their prices and therefore become uncompetitive. In both cases americans lose jobs. Increasing minimum wage will encourage landscaping companies to use more migrant labor, since they can't afford to pay even starting level "real" wages. (Migrant labor is not paid minimum wage.) Overall it's a very bad idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #169 March 12, 2009 QuoteLet people be paid what they are worth. ok...then how about a national labor union that will make sure that ALL employess are paid what they're actually worth....or something to ensure that this is executed properly.... We can't just go around trusting greedy capitalistic big shots you know....Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,107 #170 March 12, 2009 >then how about a national labor union that will make sure that ALL >employess are paid what they're actually worth . . . Well, let's think about how this would work. You couldn't do it like unions do it now, or we'd be a nation of GM's. People will simply vote in whoever promises them more money, rather than people who will determine what they are worth. You couldn't have the government do it because everyone hates the government. You might be able to set up a system where people evaluate themselves on-line; they would enter how much money they would get at each job, and it would be tallied at a national level. Come to think of it that wouldn't work either, since there would be no incentive to not enter $9,999,999 in every category. Suppose you do this - Set up a system where workers offer employers a set of skills. Have the market value those skills against some scale (say, how much money they will make the company) and propose salaries. Independent organizations could then collect this data and post it for everyone to see, so that they could know (for example) that trash collectors in Seattle make $X an hour, but architects, on average, make $Y an hour. What they are actually worth, in other words. That way, workers could choose which job they want and how much they want to make. If they want a job that they don't have the background for, now they know what education/experience they have to get first. Likewise, companies will know "hmm, the average salary for a secretary is X, so I'll offer X+2 because I really want this particular employee." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BDashe 0 #171 March 12, 2009 Increasing minimum wage wont matter, because ultimately peopel will still be at the bottom of the barrel and feel entitled to more money because the other guys are getting paid more for what they perceive as easy work. If you want more money, work at a hotel that is unionized as a busser or server in the restaurant- you'll get $15+ per hour plus tips and benefits, and overtime... and once a year you'll STILL walk out because youre working too much at 30 hours per week, and not getting paid enough. Everyone at every level is greedy to a certain extent, and everyone feels entitled to what they make and more- no matter what you pay them. The same argument from the same people would happen if you gave it a year or two, guaranteed.So there I was... Making friends and playing nice since 1983 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thanatos340 1 #172 March 12, 2009 Quote ok...then how about a national labor union that will make sure that ALL employess are paid what they're actually worth....or something to ensure that this is executed properly.... Unions in reality do the exact Opposite. They make sure that everyone is paid the same without regard to how well they do their job (what they are actually worth). How much someone is paid should be based on how effective they are at doing their job. Unions base pay off seniority and Job Title with little to no concern about how well some one does their job. It takes away the power of the INDIVIDUAL to demand a higher wage if they are exceptional at their job. If they are truly exceptional, the Business should be able to pay that person more if they would like in order to keep them. If they are not exceptional, Then they should be paid accordingly, Down to as little as (or as Much as) they are willing to accept. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #173 March 12, 2009 QuoteWell, let's think about how this would work. So far, what you propose seems similar to the procees we have now for hiring into a "real" job or career....It seems like you are sugesting a more efficient and reliable/trustworthy way to implement what we are already doing to some disorganized extent.... I guess I'm having trouble envisioning how this sytem would work on a mass scale for the broad range of "lower-class" jobs, and the personal skill level, ability, and performance of those employees for those lower end jobs. Also...maybe there could be a way to make sure that companies don't over-pay their executives...(X+1,000,000 because I REALLY like this guy) That would be an extra million that the executive shouldn't have because he's not actually worth it; leaving more money to ensure that the little guy's worth is respected and not "stolen" by the big shot.....i dunno. I guess I gotta think about it a lil more after I get some sleep....Going on 30 hrs str8 over here.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #174 March 12, 2009 QuoteThe same argument from the same people would happen if you gave it a year or two, guaranteed. I suppose can see that happening especially after inflation gets the best of us...I don't necessarily think this matters though when considering a fair wage....Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #175 March 12, 2009 Quote Unions in reality do the exact Opposite. I was trying to suggest reliable oversight in determining an employees actual worth....I don't particularly care if a Union does it or not... something has got to be done....I know life isn't fair, but some things just aren't right...like 50 bucks a day to rent a human life....you can't even rent a cheap video camera for those peanuts....seriously, I think we can do better than that....YES WE CANYour secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
