loumeinhart 0 #126 March 8, 2009 QuoteIf, for example, in a very small economy, a farmer and a mechanic, with just $50 between them, buy goods and services from each other in just three transactions over the course of a year Mechanic buys $40 of corn from farmer. Farmer spends $50 on tractor repair. Mechanic spends $10 on barn cats from farmer then $100 changed hands in course of a year, even though there is only $50 in this little economy. That $100 level is possible because each dollar was spent an average of twice a year, which is to say that the velocity was 2 / yr. so that only works if the farmer and mechanic are getting paid minimum wage, right? That makes absolutely no sense. Most jobs pay more than minimum wage. What do want minimum wage to be? $20/hr? So a 16 yr old can make $20/hr rolling pizza dough? A cleveland pizza franchise laid off gobbs of employees when Bush raised the minimum wage. The owners said "it's either this or charge $30/pizza" One last thing for you geniuses: Give me a dollar amount. What should the minimum wage be? I disagree with minimum wage for the above reasons and as a matter of principle. Government stay the HELL out of small business. Let them thrive, grow, and hire. You will find yourself with no staff if you don't pay enough. Supply and demand applies to the job market too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #127 March 9, 2009 QuoteQuoteIf, for example, in a very small economy, a farmer and a mechanic, with just $50 between them, buy goods and services from each other in just three transactions over the course of a year Mechanic buys $40 of corn from farmer. Farmer spends $50 on tractor repair. Mechanic spends $10 on barn cats from farmer then $100 changed hands in course of a year, even though there is only $50 in this little economy. That $100 level is possible because each dollar was spent an average of twice a year, which is to say that the velocity was 2 / yr. so that only works if the farmer and mechanic are getting paid minimum wage, right? That makes absolutely no sense. Most jobs pay more than minimum wage. What do want minimum wage to be? $20/hr? So a 16 yr old can make $20/hr rolling pizza dough? A cleveland pizza franchise laid off gobbs of employees when Bush raised the minimum wage. The owners said "it's either this or charge $30/pizza" One last thing for you geniuses: Give me a dollar amount. What should the minimum wage be? I disagree with minimum wage for the above reasons and as a matter of principle. Government stay the HELL out of small business. Let them thrive, grow, and hire. You will find yourself with no staff if you don't pay enough. Supply and demand applies to the job market too. +1"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BDashe 0 #128 March 9, 2009 are you forrest gump? 'jennaaaay, I think we should give people more monaaaaaayy... then everyone would be like peas and carrots again!'So there I was... Making friends and playing nice since 1983 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #129 March 9, 2009 Quote Give me a dollar amount. What should the minimum wage be? QuoteIn 1938, Congress passed the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) establishing, among other things, a minimum wage. The law sets a wage floor below which workers cannot legally be paid. In 2007, Congress passed a three-step increase, raising the minimum wage for the first time in over a decade, from $5.15 to $7.25 per hour. While an important step to regaining the purchasing power of the minimum wage, this increase still falls short of historical standards. Today, a full-time, minimum-wage worker earns $12,168 annually, less than the poverty line for a family of two. The minimum wage was instituted to protect workers from exploitation and because Congress determined that poor labor standards adversely affected commerce. Over the last 25 years, the federal government has failed to make regular increases in the minimum wage. Unlike other federal programs such as Social Security, the minimum wage does not automatically adjust for increases in the cost of living. Therefore, the onus to maintain value of the minimum wage lies on Congress. In 2007, the minimum wage set two dubious records: first, it hit its lowest real value in over 50 years; secondly, it went the longest period of time since its enactment in 1938 without being raised. As a result of growing pressure at the state and federal level, Congress passed a three-step minimum wage increase, raising the minimum wage by $2.10 over three years. On July 24, 2007, the federal minimum wage increased for the first time in more than a decade, rising from $5.15 per hour to $5.85 per hour. On July 24, 2008, the minimum wage will increase to $6.55 per hour and then to $7.25 per hour on July 24, 2009. Due to Congress’ failure to raise the minimum wage, many states and cities have taken it upon themselves to provide a higher wage floor for many of the nation’s poorest households. Prior to the federal increase, 32 states and the District of Columbia had raised their minimum wages above the federal level. In some cases, the federal increase will surpass state minimum wages and in some cases it will not. By September 2009, the number of states with minimum wages above the federal rate will be down to 12, with several states tied with the federal rate of $7.25 per hour. As of January 1, 2008, 10 states will annually adjust their minimum wages to keep pace with the rising cost of living. https://www2398.ssldomain.com/nlihc/detail/article.cfm?article_id=5236&id=46stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
loumeinhart 0 #130 March 9, 2009 Thanks for the copy and paste I guess you can't think for yourself. Again, what should minimum wage be? 20k/yr 30kyr? Why can't you give me a dollar amount. edit: my bad, you did in your first post, suggesting it be doubled. So in Ohio $7.30 x 2 = $14.60. So you think a local newspaper should be made to pay someone $14.60 to deliver their paper. that is awesome! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timmyfitz 0 #131 March 9, 2009 Quoteand another very strong example... QuoteSince the introduction of a national minimum wage in the UK in 1999, its effects on employment were subject to extensive research and observation by the Low Pay Commission. The Low Pay Commission found that, rather than make employees redundant, employers have reduced their rate of hiring, reduced staff hours, increased prices, and have found ways to cause current workers to be more productive (especially service companies). Neither trade unions nor employer organizations contest the minimum wage, although the latter had especially done so heavily until 1999. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage Am I reading this wrong or is this saying raising the minimum wage hurts not helps. Less hiring, less hours/less money and raising prices. dreamdancer, I thought you were in favor of an increase in minimum wage but your post seems to counter that. Or am missing something and not reading this correctly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #132 March 9, 2009 Quoteyour first post, suggesting it be doubled. So in Ohio $7.30 x 2 = $14.60. that is awesome! obviously not doubled in one go - how about a dollar extra a year for a decade? giving the economy plenty of time to absorb and adapt to the changes and also giving the working classes a bit of traction to drag themselves out of this depression. i think historically the minimum wage has been about half the average wage but dropped to about a third.stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #133 March 9, 2009 QuoteQuoteand another very strong example... QuoteSince the introduction of a national minimum wage in the UK in 1999, its effects on employment were subject to extensive research and observation by the Low Pay Commission. The Low Pay Commission found that, rather than make employees redundant, employers have reduced their rate of hiring, reduced staff hours, increased prices, and have found ways to cause current workers to be more productive (especially service companies). Neither trade unions nor employer organizations contest the minimum wage, although the latter had especially done so heavily until 1999. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage Am I reading this wrong or is this saying raising the minimum wage hurts not helps. Less hiring, less hours/less money and raising prices. dreamdancer, I thought you were in favor of an increase in minimum wage but your post seems to counter that. Or am missing something and not reading this correctly. employers reduce their rate of hiring - so they're still hiring staff hours reduced - brilliant; same wages less work - more time to go out and start up your own business prices increased - not always good but not bad when reflation is wanted more productive workers - wow! how an economy actually grows (without all the financial thievery) now if only the minimum wage had been allowed to grow to a sensible level then even more productivity would have been achieved. instead employers just sucked in cheap migrant labour from eastern europe (and mexico in the case of the usa) because it was the easier thing to do.stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timmyfitz 0 #134 March 10, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteand another very strong example... QuoteSince the introduction of a national minimum wage in the UK in 1999, its effects on employment were subject to extensive research and observation by the Low Pay Commission. The Low Pay Commission found that, rather than make employees redundant, employers have reduced their rate of hiring, reduced staff hours, increased prices, and have found ways to cause current workers to be more productive (especially service companies). Neither trade unions nor employer organizations contest the minimum wage, although the latter had especially done so heavily until 1999. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage Am I reading this wrong or is this saying raising the minimum wage hurts not helps. Less hiring, less hours/less money and raising prices. dreamdancer, I thought you were in favor of an increase in minimum wage but your post seems to counter that. Or am missing something and not reading this correctly. employers reduce their rate of hiring - so they're still hiring Reduce their rate of hiring which means they would have hired more except.... staff hours reduced - brilliant; same wages less work - more time to go out and start up your own business Agree. I wouldn't mind working less to make the same amount of money but I doubt this will help start new businesses. prices increased - not always good but not bad when reflation is wanted So prices have increased but the people have reduced hours/no pay increase so they can afford less. Ok. more productive workers - wow! how an economy actually grows (without all the financial thievery) These more productive workers making higher priced products they can't afford or can purchase less of. Brilliant. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #135 March 10, 2009 QuoteThese more productive workers. Brilliant. exactly! employers, rather than treating staff as mcworkers to be underpaid, and disposed of and thus used unproductively, realise, with an increase in the minimum wage, the real value of their workers to the business and treat them accordingly - by making them more productive. (i think mr henry ford tried this a while back) anyone who doesn't realise that real economic wealth is only achieved through greater worker productivity is living in lala land.stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BDashe 0 #136 March 10, 2009 Quote Quote These more productive workers. Brilliant. (i think mr henry ford tried this a while back) And for that, we now have the UAW... woopie...So there I was... Making friends and playing nice since 1983 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,107 #137 March 10, 2009 >then those with an increased wage will make less demand on government benefits. We are about to see this disproven. The UAW at GM is refusing to make any concessions; they are demanding the same (high) wage they always do. As a result, they will likely lose their jobs, and will start using a lot of government benefits. The UAW at Ford is agreeing to compensation reductions. As a result, they will likely keep their jobs and not need government assistance. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capt.Slog 0 #138 March 10, 2009 Quote>then those with an increased wage will make less demand on government benefits. We are about to see this disproven. The UAW at GM is refusing to make any concessions; they are demanding the same (high) wage they always do. As a result, they will likely lose their jobs, and will start using a lot of government benefits. The UAW at Ford is agreeing to compensation reductions. As a result, they will likely keep their jobs and not need government assistance. Neither of these sets is remotely close to minimum wage, though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,107 #139 March 10, 2009 >Neither of these sets is remotely close to minimum wage, though. Agreed. That was merely an example of a group that gets a better chance at employment when their wages are lower. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
loumeinhart 0 #140 March 10, 2009 Quoteexactly! employers, rather than treating staff as mcworkers to be underpaid, and disposed of and thus used unproductively, realise, with an increase in the minimum wage, the real value of their workers to the business and treat them accordingly - by making them more productive. If Applebees doubled the pay of it's dishwashers how would that make Apple American INC more productive? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capt.Slog 0 #141 March 10, 2009 Quote>Neither of these sets is remotely close to minimum wage, though. Agreed. That was merely an example of a group that gets a better chance at employment when their wages are lower. OK, but who's to say that the slope of the response curve stays the same sign between minimum wage and UAW wage levels? Laffer type behavior, possibly? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,107 #142 March 10, 2009 >If Applebees doubled the pay of it's dishwashers how would that make Apple >American INC more productive? Easy! They could all become managers. Imagine how much more productive an Applebee's with twice as many managers would be. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #143 March 10, 2009 Quote OK, but who's to say that the slope of the response curve stays the same sign between minimum wage and UAW wage levels? Laffer type behavior, possibly? the evidence seems to show that top rates of pay are not affected - the lower rates 'bulge' up (which will cause friction at low pay grades, but hopefully not too much.stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
loumeinhart 0 #144 March 11, 2009 Quote Easy! They could all become managers. Imagine how much more productive an Applebee's with twice as many managers would be. Right haha. There are management and corporate positions in places like this filled with folks who started as grill cooks/dish washers and worked their way up the ladder. They did so not by kissing ass, bribing cronies, or believing they were entitled, but rather working hard, being punctual, and showing a genuine interest in contributing to the bottom line and getting a piece for themselves. Afterall, they could have just stayed dishwashers and waited for the government to give them a raise Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #145 March 11, 2009 QuoteIf Applebees doubled the pay of it's dishwashers how would that make Apple American INC more productive? not saying doubling in one go - over several years. remember all the other similar businesses will be affected the same way so there is no competitive advantage to begin with between them. ten dishwashers get a wage increase. ten dishwashers then no longer claim government benefits for them or their family dependants (thus decreasing the tax level). do you accept these points?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryzflies 0 #146 March 11, 2009 Quote Quote Easy! They could all become managers. Imagine how much more productive an Applebee's with twice as many managers would be. Right haha. There are management and corporate positions in places like this filled with folks who started as grill cooks/dish washers and worked their way up the ladder. They did so not by kissing ass, bribing cronies, or believing they were entitled, but rather working hard, being punctual, and showing a genuine interest in contributing to the bottom line and getting a piece for themselves. Afterall, they could have just stayed dishwashers and waited for the government to give them a raise Unfortunately most of the higher paid people in the USA would be "B-Ark" cadidates on Golgafrinchan.If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
klingeme 1 #147 March 11, 2009 QuoteIf a young woman is working full-time at minimum wage, she’s not going to be able to support herself. If she marries or otherwise cohabitates with another young person who is also working full-time for minimum wage, they might be able to make ends meet, but just barely. Throw a baby into the mix, and there’s gonna be some welfare brought into the discussion, raising cackles of a different nature. If all you are educated to do is say "Do you want fries with that?", how much is one hour of your time worth? If 1 in the couple with no education asks "Do you want Hash Browns with that?" for 8 hours in the morning, and the other about fries in the evening, after they decided to drop out of High School, what have they "earned". They should be taking the bus, not have cable, and not being able to afford to eat at fancy restaurants. America is the land of opportunity, not entitlement. Mark Klingelhoefer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #148 March 11, 2009 QuoteIf all you are educated to do is say "Do you want fries with that?", how much is one hour of your time worth? If 1 in the couple with no education asks "Do you want Hash Browns with that?" for 8 hours in the morning, and the other about fries in the evening, after they decided to drop out of High School, what have they "earned". what they have earned is the right to be paid a fair minimum wage. and are you saying that if everyone gets a college education then burger type jobs will just disappear?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
klingeme 1 #149 March 11, 2009 QuoteQuoteIf all you are educated to do is say "Do you want fries with that?", how much is one hour of your time worth? If 1 in the couple with no education asks "Do you want Hash Browns with that?" for 8 hours in the morning, and the other about fries in the evening, after they decided to drop out of High School, what have they "earned". what they have earned is the right to be paid a fair minimum wage. and are you saying that if everyone gets a college education then burger type jobs will just disappear? There will always be jobs for people with no ambition. We will always need floors to be swept, trash to be taken out, dishes to be washed. If there continue to be people with out drive, there will always be work for them to do. Edited to add Should people with no ambition be rewarded for their lack of drive? Mark Klingelhoefer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #150 March 11, 2009 QuoteWe will always need floors to be swept, trash to be taken out, dishes to be washed. i agree that for some considerable time (until the robots do the work) manual/menial work will have to be done by real people. you seem to want to feel superior to those who have to do this work - why is that?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites