minimum wage

[kbordson 8]

Quote

Quote

The fact that the UK introduced the minimum wage 10yrs ago is irrevelant to this conversation.

no, it's not (you just think it is - but then you probably think the moon doesn't affect the tides)

Again another irrevelant point - but good attempt at distraction.

[airdvr 210]

Quote

Quote

I know from simple economics that an increase in the minimum wage results in an upward spiral of prices.

is this the same simple economics that didn't predict the credit crunch and depression?

mmmmmm.....

You're the one who suggest doubling the minimum wage. It's another tax on small business, the largest employer. How about we wait and see how well the health care proposal works, along with the bailouts, and the failure of GM and AIG, the tanking market, and the new taxes on those evil people who make over 250K before we go so far off track we can't find our way back.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[dreamdancer 0]

Quote

It's another tax on small business.

no, it's a rise in the minimum wage (you keep confusing the two)

i have a question - why was the minimum wage introduced in the usa

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[AdamLanes 1]

Quote

increasing the minimum wage doesn't increase unemployment

I'm typing this in the hopes that you are sincerely looking for the truth, and not simply an argument. When the government sets a minimum wage, they are effectively making it illegal to employ people who produce a value of less than the minimum wage. Lets say for the sake of argument the government sets the minimum wage at $10 per hour. Now, if you are a successful business owner, you will probably not consider hiring someone who can produce less than $10 per hour of value to your company. Otherwise you will be losing money, and businesses are not run to lose money. If you hire someone for the minimum wage of $10 per hour that only provides $8 of value per hour to your company, then you will be losing $2 for every hour this employee works. Obviously most people who do not provide the value set by minimum wage will become unemployed.

[dreamdancer 0]

adam, a worker isn't just a 'cog' in a business

a new machine in your business has 'value' but it can't spend the money you would pay it - workers can, therebye boosting employment and the economy

(remember it's simple economics that's got us to this point - simple thinking doesn't tell us how an aerofoil works)

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[airdvr 210]

Quote

Quote

It's another tax on small business.

no, it's a rise in the minimum wage (you keep confusing the two)

i have a question - why was the minimum wage introduced in the usa

According to Wiki...

Minimum wages were first proposed as a way to control the proliferation of sweat shops in manufacturing industries. The sweat shops employed large numbers of women and young workers, paying them what were considered to be substandard wages. The sweatshop owners were thought to have unfair bargaining power over their workers, and a minimum wage was proposed as a means to make them pay "fairly." Over time, the focus changed to helping people, especially families, become more self sufficient. Today, minimum wage laws cover workers in most low-paid fields of employment.[3]

By your reasoning I think we should really go for it and raise the minimum wages . Say $50,000/year. Imagine all the money injected into the economy by all those businesses paying that wage. Better yet, raise it to 250K and imagine all the tax revenues.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[JackC 0]

Quote

Quote

increasing the minimum wage doesn't increase unemployment

I'm typing this in the hopes that you are sincerely looking for the truth, and not simply an argument. When the government sets a minimum wage, they are effectively making it illegal to employ people who produce a value of less than the minimum wage. Lets say for the sake of argument the government sets the minimum wage at $10 per hour. Now, if you are a successful business owner, you will probably not consider hiring someone who can produce less than $10 per hour of value to your company. Otherwise you will be losing money, and businesses are not run to lose money. If you hire someone for the minimum wage of $10 per hour that only provides $8 of value per hour to your company, then you will be losing $2 for every hour this employee works. Obviously most people who do not provide the value set by minimum wage will become unemployed.

Exacly. Trainees and unskilled workers are a good example of people who cannot provide sufficient economic value if miniumum wage levels are set too high. The more unscrupulous companies out there will simply hire illegal workers who aren't affected by minimum wage laws.

[JackC 0]

Quote

adam, a worker isn't just a 'cog' in a business

But they are, at least the sort of people who are affected by minimum wage laws are. McWorkers are like light bulbs, if one doesn't work you simply plug in a new one.

[dreamdancer 0]

Quote

Trainees and unskilled workers are a good example of people who cannot provide sufficient economic value if miniumum wage levels are set too high. The more unscrupulous companies out there will simply hire illegal workers who aren't affected by minimum wage laws.

but is the minimum wage set too low at the moment? (you seem to accept that it has to be set)

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[dreamdancer 0]

Quote

But they are, at least the sort of people who are affected by minimum wage laws are. McWorkers are like light bulbs, if one doesn't work you simply plug in a new one.

you appear to have stopped working (at least the human bit)

(but there are random clicks and whirrs to entertain us)

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[jcd11235 0]

Quote

I know from simple economics that an increase in the minimum wage results in an upward spiral of prices.

Simple economics are great if you're trying to pass a fifth grade Economics test, but not much use in the real world, where economics are anything but simple. Simple economics can't explain things like Giffen goods, Veblen goods, inferior goods, and other goods that violate the law of demand. It's not that the reasons for such goods' existence cannot be explained; it's that they can't be explained without acknowledging the existence of economic forces other than simple supply and demand.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[carmenc 0]

Quote

As it has before, an increase in the minumum wage would put more out of work and therfore MORE on the government programs

When Florida increased its minimum wage a few years ago (2005-6) the business lobby and Governor Bush said exactly the same thing (as always), however, employment went UP.

So your theory apears to be faulty.

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

As it has before, an increase in the minumum wage would put more out of work and therfore MORE on the government programs

When Florida increased its minimum wage a few years ago (2005-6) the business lobby and Governor Bush said exactly the same thing (as always), however, employment went UP.

So your theory apears to be faulty.

Link please

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

I know from simple economics that an increase in the minimum wage results in an upward spiral of prices.

is this the same simple economics that didn't predict the credit crunch and depression?

mmmmmm.....

That we are having now? Sorry, but it was predicted. And the prediction stated that that Fannie and Freddie would be the trigger.

But the Dems po poed it.

Now it is Bushes fault and he is the one that was slammed for trying to stop it in 2001

Go figure

Care to try again?

oh, and there are youtube videos of the hearings with the CA senator along with Schumer and Frank said nothing was wrong with Freddie and Fannie

Go figure again....

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[freeheelbillie 3]

Quote

Quote

As it has before, an increase in the minumum wage would put more out of work and therfore MORE on the government programs

nope, increasing the minimum wage doesn't increase unemployment (tell me when you think it has)

The fact of the matter is there are certain jobs out there that are only worth so much per hour. Increase in min. wage can cause an employer to hire fewer and have them do the work many. (hiring less) Or increase the cost of product to compensate for the increase in wage...which in turn adds more financial burden to low income people.

Education is the key to a good wage, not a government mandate.

Before we go down the road of all the poor poor poor people who can't go to college, keep in mind that I work for a large university and help that demographic earn their degree everyday.

Gently pushing comfort zones since 1976...

[dreamdancer 0]

Quote

Link please

Quote

Economic theory says that raising the minimum wage helps workers whose wages are raised, and hurts people who are not hired (or lose their jobs) because companies cut back on employment. But experts disagree about what actually happens when the minimum wage is raised. They have differing ideas about how many jobs are lost, and they also present research to back their conflicting claims.

Gary Fields, Professor of Labor Economics and Economics at Cornell University, argues that the standard "textbook model" for the minimum wage is "ambiguous", and that the standard theoretical arguments incorrectly measure only a one-sector market. Fields says a two-sector market, where "the self-employed, service workers, and farm workers are typically excluded from minimum-wage coverage… [and with] one sector with minimum-wage coverage and the other without it [and possible mobility between the two]," is the basis for better analysis. Through this model, Fields shows the typical theoretical argument to be ambiguous and says "the predictions derived from the textbook model definitely do not carry over to the two-sector case. Therefore, since a non-covered sector exists nearly everywhere, the predictions of the textbook model simply cannot be relied on."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[carmenc 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

As it has before, an increase in the minumum wage would put more out of work and therfore MORE on the government programs

When Florida increased its minimum wage a few years ago (2005-6) the business lobby and Governor Bush said exactly the same thing (as always), however, employment went UP.

So your theory apears to be faulty.

Link please

Here you go:
http://southflorida.bizjournals.com/southflorida/stories/2006/05/01/daily29.html

You can find others, confirming the story, if you type "Google" into your browser. It's not hard.

[billvon 3,107]

>the new 'new deal' should obviously include a substantial increase in the
>minimum wage (at least doubling it). this will have the benefit of fewer workers
>drawing government benefits . . .

Actually it will increase the number of people drawing government benefits for several reasons:

1) The amount of money available to pay people will not change as a result of this law. Thus, companies will lay people off in order to be able to afford labor.

2) Inflation will immediately kick in since this gives everyone more money to spend. The end result will not be much increase in buying power.

Want to reduce government benefits? Reduce the minimum wage and let more people work. Come down hard on companies like Wal-Mart who train their workers to get around the system and get as much out of the government as they can. Put more effort into education and worker retraining, so more people are hireable in places other than Burger King.

[rushmc 23]

thanks

I think this may be more objective however

http://www.lera.uiuc.edu/Pubs/Perspectives/CompArticles/nissen.pdf

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[livendive 8]

Quote

Quote

Quote

I know from simple economics that an increase in the minimum wage results in an upward spiral of prices.

is this the same simple economics that didn't predict the credit crunch and depression?

mmmmmm.....

You're the one who suggest doubling the minimum wage. It's another tax on small business, the largest employer. How about we wait and see how well the health care proposal works, along with the bailouts, and the failure of GM and AIG, the tanking market, and the new taxes on those evil people who make over 250K before we go so far off track we can't find our way back.

Somewhat off the subject, but I think that the whole minimum wage issue is just one front in a seldom discussed but rampant class warfare in the US. The poor and working class rail about the evil corporations while the better off (especially those with an (r) next to their name) are opposed to both mandated living wages and increased welfare. If a young woman is working full-time at minimum wage, she’s not going to be able to support herself. If she marries or otherwise cohabitates with another young person who is also working full-time for minimum wage, they might be able to make ends meet, but just barely. Throw a baby into the mix, and there’s gonna be some welfare brought into the discussion, raising cackles of a different nature. Sure, it’d be possible for one to babysit while the other works dayshift, and then the other babysit while the first works graves, but that’s going to be the exception not the rule. I’d like to believe that at some point, the union type folks will accept that their employers deserve to lead a more comfortable life due to their extra efforts, talents, and/or investments, and the business owners will understand that it’s better for everyone if they pay all full-time employees at least enough to live on, but I don’t suspect either of these will actually come to pass in my lifetime.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Capt.Slog 0]

Quote

thanks

I think this may be more objective however

http://www.lera.uiuc.edu/Pubs/Perspectives/CompArticles/nissen.pdf

Are you claiming that the FACT that raising the minimum wage in Florida did not increase unemployment (contrary to the predictions of the right) is somehow not objective? How can a FACT not be objective?

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

You can find others, confirming the story, if you type "Google" into your browser. It's not hard.

It's really hard, my keyboard doesn't have a "g" or an "l"

"_oo__e" doesn't take me to any non-porn sites. and only three of them talk about minimum wage

but not like you'd think

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[nerdgirl 0]

Quote

When Florida increased its minimum wage a few years ago (2005-6) the business lobby and Governor Bush said exactly the same thing (as always), however, employment went UP.

Quote

I think this may be more objective however

http://www.lera.uiuc.edu/Pubs/Perspectives/CompArticles/nissen.pdf

Being the nerdy-sort , I read the link.

“Relying on widely accepted state and national statistics on the unemployment rate, industry employment, business activity, and worker wages, the study examined trends before and after implementation of the minimum wage and its January 1, 2006, augmentation to see if any negative impacts could be discerned. We were unable to find any negative impacts whatsoever.

“Rather than seeing employers flee the state, the number of private establishments in the state grew at a faster pace in the year following minimum wage implementation than it had grown in some years. We could find no evidence that low-wage workers were worse off than prior to the new minimum-wage coverage.

“After Florida imposed its wage hike, the unemployment situation improved.”

Unless my reading is way off -- & I encourage interested others to read the short (3 pages) linked pdf -- the data supports Carmen's assertions.

Is there data and analysis from California or other State's 'living wage' acts?

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[chuckakers 426]

Quote

Quote

Doubling the minimum wage won't make lazy people go to work.

i'll think you'll find that doubling the minimum wage will definitely entice lazy people out to work - duh!

(and if they're not already working who is supporting them?)

The minimum wage has been raised many times over the years, yet there's no evidence that more people started looking for jobs because of it. People who work the system for welfare, rent subsidies, free medical treatment, food stamps, etc., etc., are not going to work for things they already get for filling out a few forms, sobbing to a government councilor, and waiting by the mailbox for a check from me and the rest of the taxpayers.

On the other hand, people do go to work when they get cut off from such "assistance". Strange how that works.

And to answer your question, me and the rest of the taxpayers are supporting them. See paragraph 1.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[dreamdancer 0]

Quote

People who work the system for welfare, rent subsidies, free medical treatment, food stamps, etc., etc., are not going to work for things they already get for filling out a few forms, sobbing to a government councilor, and waiting by the mailbox for a check from me and the rest of the taxpayers.

you do like your stereotypes (i bet you think all skydivers are death crazed near suiciders - and one joint will turn you into a psycho killer)

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding