QuoteI'm curious... what effect do you think an assault weapon ban would have and why do we need one? Or more specifically why do you want one?
It will make people less scared that their neighbors will use a black gun to kill them like four legged meat when the economy really tanks and we have food riots.
You make some excellent points.
But I am not sure about your idea of Kinetic Energy over time as a defining factor. For example take your average Deer Hunting Rifle (At least in this part of the Country) Typically a 30.06 Semi Automatic Rifle (I personally use a Remington 742 Carbine) with a 7 to 10 round clip. Many of these guns also use Clips so that you could in theory pop in another full clip in under a second or two.
These pure hunting rifles are considerably more powerful and just as fast firing as AR15 or M16 (In legal Semi Automatic). You can buy larger capacity clip for these guns but there is no reason these higher capacity clips could not be made for Traditional Hunting rifles as well (And probably already are being made).
Another prime example of the stupidity of the previous laws was that an SKS rifle for example (Post Ban - Made After 1992) was completely legal with as long as it had a wooden stock. IF you changed the Stock to a Fiberglass or other material stock, the gun was now an illegal Assault rifle. Talk about stupid. The law was based simply on how the gun looked. It is the exact same gun. Functionally nothing changed.
I attached a few Picture examples..
1. Remington 742 carbine - Pure Hunting Rifle but MUCH more powerful and just as fast firing as other Semi Automatic rifles.
2. SKS in Legal form.
3. SKS in Illegal Form (If manufactured after 1992) under old Law. Only difference is the Stock.
This is why these supposed "Assault Weapon" Bans are just plain stupid. The definition is typically how does the gun "Look" and has nothing to do with the power and/or firing capacity.
But I am not sure about your idea of Kinetic Energy over time as a defining factor. For example take your average Deer Hunting Rifle (At least in this part of the Country) Typically a 30.06 Semi Automatic Rifle (I personally use a Remington 742 Carbine) with a 7 to 10 round clip. Many of these guns also use Clips so that you could in theory pop in another full clip in under a second or two.
These pure hunting rifles are considerably more powerful and just as fast firing as AR15 or M16 (In legal Semi Automatic). You can buy larger capacity clip for these guns but there is no reason these higher capacity clips could not be made for Traditional Hunting rifles as well (And probably already are being made).
Another prime example of the stupidity of the previous laws was that an SKS rifle for example (Post Ban - Made After 1992) was completely legal with as long as it had a wooden stock. IF you changed the Stock to a Fiberglass or other material stock, the gun was now an illegal Assault rifle. Talk about stupid. The law was based simply on how the gun looked. It is the exact same gun. Functionally nothing changed.
I attached a few Picture examples..
1. Remington 742 carbine - Pure Hunting Rifle but MUCH more powerful and just as fast firing as other Semi Automatic rifles.
2. SKS in Legal form.
3. SKS in Illegal Form (If manufactured after 1992) under old Law. Only difference is the Stock.
This is why these supposed "Assault Weapon" Bans are just plain stupid. The definition is typically how does the gun "Look" and has nothing to do with the power and/or firing capacity.
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QuoteI'm curious... what effect do you think an assault weapon ban would have and why do we need one? Or more specifically why do you want one?
Because beyond a certain point, and I'm not saying what that is at this time, a certain amount of kinetic energy over time really only serves one real purpose; having the ability to kill a high volume of people in a very short amount of time. This is, in fact, what the weapons are designed to do.
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QuoteBut I am not sure about your idea of Kinetic Energy over time as a defining factor.
I think it could be "a" deciding factor and not "the" deciding factor. Another one could be the physical size of the weapon which has an effect on its conceal-ability.
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In general your average Hunting Rifle will generally be more powerful and capable of firing just as fast (If not faster) than most guns typically considered Assault Rifles.
If Kinetic energy over time were used, It would be our Hunting rifles that would be ruled out.
Physical Size?? Barrel Length? or Total Gun Length including Stock? Do you realize that a 742 Carbine is shorter in length than an M16 or AR15? (18 1/2 inch barrel vs 20 inch barrel)
So the Hunting rifle is far more powerful, Fires just as fast, can change clips just as quickly, can hold just as much ammo and is physically smaller.
In the end it always boils down to aesthetics. Does the gun "Look" scary. If so, It is an Assault Rifle.
We have already proven by the last ban that these laws do not have a real effect on Crime. Why do it again?
I actually agree that there should be some limitations on what we can purchase. I have no need for Grenade launchers, Flame Thrower or Fully Automatic Guns. Those are already illegal. But when we start (Once again) making guns illegal based on what the Stock looks like with out consideration of anything else, it is just plain stupid. The stock isn’t the part that bites.
If Kinetic energy over time were used, It would be our Hunting rifles that would be ruled out.
Physical Size?? Barrel Length? or Total Gun Length including Stock? Do you realize that a 742 Carbine is shorter in length than an M16 or AR15? (18 1/2 inch barrel vs 20 inch barrel)
So the Hunting rifle is far more powerful, Fires just as fast, can change clips just as quickly, can hold just as much ammo and is physically smaller.
In the end it always boils down to aesthetics. Does the gun "Look" scary. If so, It is an Assault Rifle.
We have already proven by the last ban that these laws do not have a real effect on Crime. Why do it again?
I actually agree that there should be some limitations on what we can purchase. I have no need for Grenade launchers, Flame Thrower or Fully Automatic Guns. Those are already illegal. But when we start (Once again) making guns illegal based on what the Stock looks like with out consideration of anything else, it is just plain stupid. The stock isn’t the part that bites.
SkyDekker 1,465
QuoteI actually agree that there should be some limitations on what we can purchase. I have no need for Grenade launchers, Flame Thrower or Fully Automatic Guns.
Why? Why would an American not be allowed to buy a fully automatic rifle and play with it on a firing range, or in his backyard?
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QuoteIn general your average Hunting Rifle will generally be more powerful and capable of firing just as fast (If not faster) than most guns typically considered Assault Rifles.
Really? This is true of the "average" hunting rifle?
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QuoteBarrel Length? or Total Gun Length including Stock
Those are already controlled by the ATF with laws on the books. Those laws include rifles and shotguns.
QuoteIn the end it always boils down to aesthetics. Does the gun "Look" scary. If so, It is an Assault Rifle.
Ding we have a winner!
The picture I posted of my "black gun" earlier is different from an AR setup (typical setup) for hog hunting by way of the sling an the light I mounted. There are no ATF stamps on the gun, its all over the counter legal. However, my rifle doesn't have the knock down power of a .308 and the rate of fire is limited to semi-only. No 3rd bursts, no full auto. Just a basic rifle.
Take the North Hollywood shootout. The rifles used were illegally purchased and modified. That occurred right in 1997, right in the middle of the 1994 AWB. So in that case, which is a touch stone of an extreme gun fight in modern history, even the last AWB did no good. In fact, if the court systems would have actually followed through from a previous arrest in 1993 on serious weapons violations (and speeding), then the 1997 assault/bank robbery, would not have occurred.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."
QuoteIn general your average Hunting Rifle will generally be more powerful and capable of firing just as fast (If not faster) than most guns typically considered Assault Rifles.
Really? This is true of the "average" hunting rifle?
Yes, this is true of the average hunting rifle, excluding bolt action single shot rifles.
The "assault weapons" that were previsously banned were not full auto weapons. They were "scary looking" guns that had 30rd magazines and bayonet lugs. Paul, look at the picture of the rifle I posted earlier. It doesn't even have a bayonet lug, yet it would be banned. Most people can change magazines 2-3 seconds, so even limiting magazine size is a moot point. All it is for is to make people who are scared of all guns feel better.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."
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QuoteQuoteIn general your average Hunting Rifle will generally be more powerful and capable of firing just as fast (If not faster) than most guns typically considered Assault Rifles.
Really? This is true of the "average" hunting rifle?
Yes, this is true of the average hunting rifle, excluding bolt action single shot rifles.
Hmmm . . . I don't know if that's actually true. What are you calling "average"?
BTW, even a magazine that takes 2 to 3 seconds to change severely drops down the kinetic energy over time of the weapon. Let's say the 10 round magazine can be emptied in 3 seconds. Taking 3 seconds to change it means it has dropped down the average by 50%.
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QuoteHmmm . . . I don't know if that's actually true. What are you calling "average"?
Do you have a Gander Mountain or a Bass Pro Shop near by? It would be worth the visit to see the wide variety of magazine fed hunting rifles. Even magazine tube fed lever action rifles can be fired exceptionally quickly! Even a bolt action, magazine fed weapon can be fired extremely quickly.
Also, the AR platform has become an extremely popular platform for quite a few types of hunting.
Would you call a sniper rifle an assault weapon? How about a Winchester 700 hunting rifle?
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."
QuoteQuoteIn general your average Hunting Rifle will generally be more powerful and capable of firing just as fast (If not faster) than most guns typically considered Assault Rifles.
Really? This is true of the "average" hunting rifle?
The Average Hunting Rifle varies in different parts of the county. In the Southeast US, The Typical Hunting Rifle is a semi-automatic 30.06. Some will use 30/30`s and 223`s but they generally get laughed at for carrying their BB Guns.
One Semi-Auto rifle generally fires just as quickly as another.
QuoteBTW, even a magazine that takes 2 to 3 seconds to change severely drops down the kinetic energy over time of the weapon. Let's say the 10 round magazine can be emptied in 3 seconds. Taking 3 seconds to change it means it has dropped down the average by 50%.
In my Hunting rifle (And most other that I know of) I could change the clip in under 1 second. The same time that it takes to change the clip in SKS or my AR15. It is basically the same mechanism with the exact same motions.
The time to change clips is the same. The capacity of the clip would be the only difference. I am certain that higher capacity clips could be manufactured for Hunting rifles exactly like the “Assault Rifles” and probably already are being made.
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QuoteThe Average Hunting Rifle varies in different parts of the county. In the Southeast US, The Typical Hunting Rifle is a semi-automatic 30.06. Some will use 30/30`s and 223`s but they generally get laughed at for carrying their BB Guns.
Lemme ask you this; is that a matter of what it actually takes to effectively hunt . . . or, as I suspect is actually the case, just the typical American "bigger is better and more macho therefore I have to get it" syndrome?
To address AggieDave, if people have become used to using a weapons such as the AR-15 for hunting, then it's only due to the nature of the original weapon that was specifically designed for military use and then later found popularity. Again, I suggest it's the weapon's appeal to the "it's macho" crowd that drives sales and not that it's a brilliant hunting weapon.
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QuoteThe time to change clips is the same. The capacity of the clip would be the only difference.
Which again addresses the kinetic energy over time issue. Limiting magazine capacity does drop it down.
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Quotethen it's only due to the nature of the original weapon that was specifically designed for military use and then later found popularity
Not really. Other exceptionally popular military weapons have not become popular hunting rifles. Not too many people hunt with a SKS or AK-47. Same with a large number of really well built and accurate H&K rifles. The list could continue.
Paul, don't take our word for it. Google around a little bit and read reviews for various hunting rifles and/or visit a larger hunting supply store that also sells rifles.
Quoteis that a matter of what it actually takes to effectively hunt
Yes.
QuoteI suspect is actually the case, just the typical American "bigger is better and more macho therefore I have to get it" syndrome?
To a point, however, most hunters have a rifle for the animal or type of hunting they do. You wouldn't hunt deer with a rifle chambered in 500 express (which is a huge and powerful round), just like you wouldn't hunt moose with a .223 or .22LR.
To give you a good example. You wouldn't show up to a PST meet with a Manta 288 and you wouldn't go to nationals for classic accuracy with a JVX 89.
I'm also really hoping you would answer my question about a sniper rifle.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."
QuoteLemme ask you this; is that a matter of what it actually takes to effectively hunt
Short answer.. Yes.
Thick brush and Pine thickets are everywhere. This is where you will find the deer. Shot Guns or lesser calibers are not as effective as they tend to be deflected by brush and small limbs and leaves that are general between you and your target. Also the size of the game is relevant. In some parts of the state, The deer are relatively small and a 223 or 30/30 are just fine, In other parts of the state the deer are considerably larger and the stopping power of the 30.06 is needed.
None of this is relevant though as the constitution does NOT say I have a Right to Keep and bear Arms for Hunting. It says I have a Right to Keep and bear Arms. The courts have said that right includes keeping and bearing Semi-Automatic Rifles. We are trying to say only Semi-Automatic Rifles that have traditional wooden stocks.
I personally do not hunt much any more but I do enjoy going to the range once a month or so. When doing that, I prefer my Assault Rifles (Cheaper Ammo and kicks less. I could not stand to run a couple hundred rounds through my 30.06, my shoulder would be killing me after that). I strongly believe that I have a Right to do this as an American Citizen. I hate to see people trying to take that right away under some false pretense.
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having the ability to kill a high volume of people in a very short amount of time. This is, in fact, what the weapons are designed to do.
I'm not trying to get pedantic here, but for a guy who is always careful with his language, I'm not sure you meant to say that, exactly.
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Quote
Does the gun "Look" scary. If so, It is an Assault Rifle.
Just the other day, the New York Daily News ran a big article on gun "collection" activities being pursued in the city. There was a liberal city politician proudly holding up a rifle with a sniper scope on it. The headline read "...as he proudly holds a shotgun". They can't even get basic definitions right. Expecting more of these people probably won't work very well.
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QuoteQuote
having the ability to kill a high volume of people in a very short amount of time. This is, in fact, what the weapons are designed to do.
I'm not trying to get pedantic here, but for a guy who is always careful with his language, I'm not sure you meant to say that, exactly.
Actually, that's precisely what I meant to say.
The military does not specify weapons for hunting. When they go to the gun manufacturers, they do so with criteria determined to kill people.
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Somewhere in this thread, I seem to have lost thread topic. Didn't realize you were discussing military weapons while other folks were discussing deer hunting. My bad...
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