The War on Drugs

[vortexring 0]

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>Making it legal, will, amongst other things, allow people to know the
>strength of the drug they're taking, hence less overdoses.

I agree. Making it legal will ALSO allow far more people to get their hands on the drug; that will tend to increase overdoses.

No. Your missing an important point. Making it legal will allow users to know exactly what purity they're taking. This will therefore reduce overdoses. Most overdoses are caused by taking heroin of a purity far higher than what they're used to, never mind the issues arising from the drug being cut/mixed with other substances.

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>You haven't proven anything.

Your statement, "if somebody wishes to take drugs, they'll take them, whether they're illegal or not," is demonstrably false. I know several people (I listed them) who did want to take drugs and did not because they were illegal, and they did not want to break the law.

A minority, which I agreed with earlier. Perhaps I should have made clearer I refer to the majority of people. And sure, some people won't take them only because they may well be tested for illegal substances in their work (which I think is a great idea), but if people want to do it, they most often will. The greater deterrent is knowledge through honest education.

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You can think such people are idiots; that's fine.

I think of such people as law abiding citizens. Which is good in my book. Why on earth would I regard them as idiots?

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>People will take drugs whether they're illegal or not.

Some people will. Some won't. Your argument that making drugs illegal does not slow their usage or restrict the people using them is incorrect; this was proven during prohibition.

I believe making drugs illegal increase their use, as explained to you earlier. Forget your alcohol prohibition. As well as suitably not mentioning the serious issues which arose from the law, it's a completely different kettle of fish, as explained earlier.

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Some people do actually obey laws.

Well, thank goodness for that eh?

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

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I think, something that enters into this 'Drug War' thing is, the number of U.S citizens being kidnapped and killed by the drug cartels. The high number of innocent people being killed by the 'warring' drug cartels along our southwest border just to gain control of the 'trade routes' into this country. If, they can control these routes they stand to make millions and millions of dollars. As long as the demand in this country for illegal drugs remains high, innocent people are going to die. Does anyone care about that?


Chuck

Sure, once the drugs are no longer illegal, the blackmarket as we know it dies; your problem is solved.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[billvon 3,173]

>Making it legal will allow users to know exactly what purity they're taking.
>This will therefore reduce overdoses.

I agree.

It will ALSO allow more people to obtain the drug. This aspect of it will INCREASE overdoses.

You seem to have this image of heroin users as intelligent, careful people who decide what a safe dosage is, never intentionally exceed that through bad judgment, and can only be injured by an unscrupulous dealer who makes it impossible to know what dosage they are getting.

Heroin is one of the most addictive drugs on the planet. When people are using it, they are, well, on drugs, and do not make good decisions. As people use more and more heroin, they develop a tolerance for it, and MUST use higher and higher doses to get the same effect. New users might use 10mg; habitual users need several hundred mg a day for the same effect. They cannot easily stop. If they try, they will become physically ill.

This leads to a problem - what's a safe dose? A user who asks at all about safe levels might hear a friend tell him that he takes 300mg a day without any problem. That amount might kill a new user - even if he knows he is getting exactly 300mg from the local legal drug store.

Your argument that the only danger of heroin is that its illegality makes it hard to safely determine dosage is a non-starter. I agree with your basic premise, but that argument is absurd.

>I believe making drugs illegal increase their use, as explained to you
>earlier. Forget your alcohol prohibition.

If you intentionally disregard any evidence that goes against your hypothesis, it's easy to prove - but doesn't say much for its robustness.

[masterrig 1]

Maybe the 'black market' as we think of it but... in the meantime, innocent people on both sides of the border will continue to get gunned-down. All because people in this country want dope.


Chuck

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>Making it legal will allow users to know exactly what purity they're taking.
>This will therefore reduce overdoses.

I agree.

It will ALSO allow more people to obtain the drug. This aspect of it will INCREASE overdoses.

I disagree. The percentage of users overdosing will decrease.

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You seem to have this image of heroin users as intelligent, careful people who decide what a safe dosage is, never intentionally exceed that through bad judgment, and can only be injured by an unscrupulous dealer who makes it impossible to know what dosage they are getting.

Wrong. My perception of heroin users is generally one of irresponsibility and stupidity. My point isn't about unscrupulous dealers. It's about the blackmarket in general making the drug far more dangerous than what the drug is itself.

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Heroin is one of the most addictive drugs on the planet.

Did you know nicotine is more addictive?

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When people are using it, they are, well, on drugs, and do not make good decisions. As people use more and more heroin, they develop a tolerance for it, and MUST use higher and higher doses to get the same effect.

MUST? Not always. There are more than enough users who've been smoking it for decades, who didn't have to increase their dosage. A minority? Yes, but still a valid point, as this is an aspect most aren't aware of. Like many other aspects regarding illegal drugs.

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New users might use 10mg; habitual users need several hundred mg a day for the same effect. They cannot easily stop. If they try, they will become physically ill.

This leads to a problem - what's a safe dose? A user who asks at all about safe levels might hear a friend tell him that he takes 300mg a day without any problem. That amount might kill a new user - even if he knows he is getting exactly 300mg from the local legal drug store.

Remember my point about knowledge through honest education being the greatest deterrent?

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Your argument that the only danger of heroin is that its illegality makes it hard to safely determine dosage is a non-starter.

Thank goodness that isn't my primary argument then, eh? 'the only danger of heroin is that its illegality makes it hard to safely determine dosage'

Hilarious Bill.

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I agree with your basic premise, but that argument is absurd.

Isn't it just! So tell me, other than addiction and overdoses, what else is dangerous about heroin? Once you start answering this question properly, you'll be getting back to my original points. Oh by the way:

"Heroin is very addictive but does not in itself cause any serious illnesses, nor does it harm any organs or tissues." Dr Ben Goldacre Dr Ben Goldacre, 'Methadone and Heroin: An Exercise in Medical Scepticism'

"When heroin-dependent persons have been provided with daily maintenance doses under medical supervision, marked physiological deterioration or significant psychological impairment has not been observed. In fact, most of the serious adverse consequences of chronic heroin use are generally related to lifestayle and factors involving needle administration." Cox et al, Toronto Addiction Research Foundation

"The available evidence indicates that heroin, when provided in pure form, is a relatively safe drug. Hence it is primarily the illegal nature of the drug, rather than its pharmacological properties, which leads to the health and social problems associated with its use." Ostini, Bammer, Dance and Goodwin. 'The Ethics of Experimental Heroin Maintenance.' Journal of Medical Ethics, 1993.

"There is thus general agreement throughout the medical and psychiatric literature that the overall effects of opium, morphine, and heroin on the addict's mind and body under conditions of low price and ready availability are on the whole amazingly bland." Edward M. Brecher, 1972

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>I believe making drugs illegal increase their use, as explained to you
>earlier. Forget your alcohol prohibition.

If you intentionally disregard any evidence that goes against your hypothesis, it's easy to prove - but doesn't say much for its robustness.

It equally speaks little of your counter-argument by using the alcohol prohibition. You're disregarding that the two aren't quite related as you assume. You also forget my main point, which is the problems which arise through the illegality. Which leads us nicely to your alcohol-prohibition:

"I am against Prohibition because it has set the cause of temperence back twenty years; because it has substituted an ineffective campaign of force for an effective campaign of education; because it has replaced comparatively uninjurious light wines and beers with the worst kind of hard liquor and bad liquor; because it has increased drinking not only among men but has extended drinking to women and even children. -- William Randolph Hearst, initially a supporter of Prohibition, explaining his change of mind in 1929. From "Drink: A Social History of America" by Andrew Barr (1999), p. 239.

"The prestige of government has undoubtedly been lowered considerably by the prohibition law. For nothing is more destructive of respect for the government and the law of the land than passing laws which cannot be enforced. It is an open secret that the dangerous increase of crime in this country is closely connected with this."
Albert Einstein "My First Impression of the U.S.A.", 1921

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[vortexring 0]

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Maybe the 'black market' as we think of it but... in the meantime, innocent people on both sides of the border will continue to get gunned-down. All because people in this country want dope.


Chuck

It's more because of it being illegal mate.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[masterrig 1]

I see your point. The whole thing causes blood to shoot from my eyes. I guess, I've never understood the thing about drugs... and I grew-up through the sixties!
I have seen what heroin, meth, acid and etc. have done to people I've known. You made a good point about not knowing what some shit is cut with. Which drugs should be made legal?


Chuck

[vortexring 0]

Everyone of them! Prohibition doesn't and will not work. Bill mentioned the ridiculous alcohol prohibition reducing numbers of alcohol drinkers - yet this misses far more pertinent points.

Heroin prohibition started in the UK around the late sixties, it's believed there was around 500 users. It's now believed there's 500000 users. . .

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[jcd11235 0]

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Which drugs should be made legal?

Pretty much all of the recreational ones (e.g. cannabis, cocaine, LSD, heroin, DMT, psylisybin, MDMA, amphetamine, methamphetamine, etc.) should be legal.

I agree with previous posters that the drug war is more dangerous than the drugs.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jcd11235 0]

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Prohibition greatly reduced alcohol consumption;

Do you have a source for this? I've heard differently in the past, but have never attempted to verify the accuracy of the claim.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[masterrig 1]

...And TAX the hell out of it!


Chuck

[masterrig 1]

Then we could watch the really funny commercials for it during the Superbowl!


Chuck

[masterrig 1]

Prohibition greatly reduced alcohol consumption;

That ain't he way my grand fathers told it! Everybody was making home-brew and 'bathtub gin' or had a still somewhere. Joe Kennedy made his fortune smuggling booze out of Canada. Booze was really quite plentiful. It was smuggled across both of our borders. Folks were drinking anything that resembled booze and a lot of folks died from bad booze. Prohibition didn't reduce alchohol consumption at all.


Chuck

[Coreece 190]

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[jcd11235]>Pretty much all of the recreational ones (e.g. cannabis, cocaine, LSD, heroin, DMT, psylisybin, MDMA, amphetamine, methamphetamine, etc.) should be legal.


[masterrig]>>Then we could watch the really funny commercials for it during the Superbowl!

They would probably resemble something like this:

Flintstones Cigarette Commercial

I just recently had to cut out a bunch of Dragnet Chesterfield commercials for the DVD colection...they're a little creepy.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Misternatural 0]

yep

The History Channel here in the states did an excellent piece on moonshine.

The effect of legalization reduced the associated crime but not the
usage. however after prohibition was lifted there was an explosion in commercial production and a massive drinking party resulted nationwide.

The real casualty of the war on drugs imop has to do with the banning of industrial hemp production here in the states, a whole industry that is desperately needed right now.-legal in Vermont BTW.

Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires.
D S #3.1415

[virgin-burner 1]

i think u're being a little naive here bill..

in the netherlands where soft drugs are not legal but tolerated, there was an increase when it started, but it declined a lot after that. most dutch people do not smoke weed, contrary to popular belief.

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[skybytch 273]

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Maybe the 'black market' as we think of it but... in the meantime, innocent people on both sides of the border will continue to get gunned-down. All because people in this country want dope.

No... all because people in this country won't legalize dope. If it's legal, there's no reason for the "drug cartels" to exist because there won't be nearly as much money to be made - freeing up customs and the Border Patrol to concentrate on other important issues. If it's legal, there's no reason for drug dealers to be in business - freeing up all law enforcement to concentrate on other important issues. If it's legal, thousands of non-violent inmates can be released - thus saving taxpayers a couple million per year. If it's legal, the government can throw a sin tax on it - thus creating more revenue.

Which is better - throwing good money after bad trying to stop something that is never going to stop? Or turning what isn't going to stop into a never ending income stream for the government?

[masterrig 1]

There was an old ad on the last page of Life magazine with John Wayne hawking Camel cigarettes; "They are good and good for you!"


Chuck

[masterrig 1]

I watched that program on the History channel. A lot of my information cmae from folks I have known who lived through that era. Anheuser Busch survived quite well by producing 'Near Beer', yeast and animal feeds. I've heard for years, there was a large piece of acreage somewhere in Ohio where hemp had been grown and the feds would periodically burn it. Folks would gather from miles away just to sit down-wind of that fire.


Chuck

[masterrig 1]

I can understand what you are saying but, cigarettes and booze are legal and taxed, quite highly. Yet, both are still stolen and sold in this country on the 'balck market'. The reason... to avoid the tax. Do you suppose, that even if all your favorite drugs were legal that it would really stop the criminal element? It appears, we are in a bit of a 'Catch-22"
What I'm curious of too is, the accessibility of drugs to kids? Should there be an age limit put on drugs or should use by children be at the discretion of their parents? Kids are getting dope as it is, now. Should we make it easier for them? What about the babies born to addicted mothers? Who winds-up caring for them? It's quiet easy to just say 'legalize it' but, there are ramifications that have to be considered and not just appeasing the want or need of a portion of our society.


Chuck

[masterrig 1]

cocaine, LSD, heroin, DMT, psylisybin, MDMA, amphetamine, methamphetamine, etc.) should be legal.

These are considered 'recreational' drugs? Holy crap!


Chuck

[shropshire 0]

Didn't Vietnam show that a country could go to war on drugs?..... well a large proportion of them anyway.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[wmw999 2,644]

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What is the point of this war? What does it achieve?

At the moment, I think it's economic stimulus . After all, it employs a ton of guards and law enforcement personnel, along with the construction folks to build new prisons.

Think of what it would do to unemployment numbers to get rid of all that


Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[skybytch 273]

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I can understand what you are saying but, cigarettes and booze are legal and taxed, quite highly. Yet, both are still stolen and sold in this country on the 'balck market'.

How many cigarette and booze smugglers shoot other smugglers?

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Do you suppose, that even if all your favorite drugs were legal that it would really stop the criminal element?

Stop? No. But I'd think most people who do the drugs wouldn't purchase from the "criminal element" if they can purchase or produce them legally, which would severely limit the dealers customer base. Look at prescription drug addicts - they'll shop doctors to get the scripts they need to purchase the drugs legally at the pharmacy instead of paying street prices.

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Kids are getting dope as it is, now. Should we make it easier for them?

Kids are getting cigarettes and alcohol as it is, now. Shouldn't we make it harder for them?

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What about the babies born to addicted mothers? Who winds-up caring for them?

The same folks who care for babies born to alcoholic women or to women who die of lung cancer because they smoked cigarettes.

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It's quiet easy to just say 'legalize it' but, there are ramifications that have to be considered and not just appeasing the want or need of a portion of our society.

It's even easier to just say don't legalize it, but there are ramifications that have to be considered and not just appeasing the want or need of a portion of our society - in this case, that portion that profits from the
continuation of the "war on drugs."

[kelpdiver 2]

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I can understand what you are saying but, cigarettes and booze are legal and taxed, quite highly. Yet, both are still stolen and sold in this country on the 'balck market'. The reason... to avoid the tax. Do you suppose, that even if all your favorite drugs were legal that it would really stop the criminal element? It appears, we are in a bit of a 'Catch-22"

People steal and sell speakers and stereo equipment. People steal goods that are easy to sell. It's not just about avoiding the tax. (Indian tribes sell the smokes that way) And long before the tax on cigarettes got so high, they were still commonly stolen and sold. As for booze, how much is the tax on a $30 bottle? Or even at $10 one? I see the difference between the liquor store and Bevmo far exceeding that.

So I think your argument is based on a false premise - that the taxes are the source of this black market.