Orders from Rome

[JackC 0]

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No, the politician's belief system will affect their policy decisions. Just as our individual belief systems affect our decisions. We vote for representatives that mirror our feelings on issues that are key to us.

I think you are seriously underestimating the power the church to influence peoples thoughts and actions. If a politician defines themself as catholic, then their belief system is catholic. If the official catholic teachings on subject X change, then that person is left with a dilemma. Either they also change their views on X, or they cease to be catholic. Ceasing to be the thing you have defined yourself as for your entire life is not an option most people are willing to take and they would find it much more palatable to simply change their position regarding subject X instead. Because the church can hold influence over people in this way, it can also have influence over policy. That is what the Vatican are trying to do here.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Former Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien wrote a memoir many years ago in which he talks about the political actions of the church in Quebec in the '50s. The two major parties were generally known as les Bleus (Union Nationale) and les Rouges (liberals). The Archbishop gave a sermon a sermon the Sunday before one election pronouncing that heaven is BLEU whereas hell is ROUGE. When Chretien's father (a liberal) confessed to buying votes the local priest told him his sin was so treacherous he would have to confess it to the Archbishop in order to receive communion on Easter. In a small town where virtually everyone goes to mass on Easter not receiving communion would have been a severe social censure.
Now take one more step and think about the power Imams have in societies where almost everyone is Muslim. Iran comes to mind. try taking a position against the Ayatollahs there.
Are there any Catholics on the SCOTUS? Is everyone OK with them taking orders from Rome on mandatory interpretations of the constitution?

[Andy9o8 2]

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Are there any Catholics on the SCOTUS? Is everyone OK with them taking orders from Rome on mandatory interpretations of the constitution?

I presume Scalia, for example, does take guidance from the teachings of his religion, but I don't think he "takes orders from Rome", any more than I think Joe Lieberman or Rahm Emanuel, both Orthodox Jews, "take orders" from their rabbis on how they must conduct their public duties. In that regard, all public officials bring their personal ethical frameworks with them into office, including those derived from their respective religions. The same can certainly be said about, for example, Protestant born-again Christian public officers. But they also bring with them the values that their parents and families instilled upon them. I think it's a dangerous slippery slope when we presume that just because a person is a practicing member of Religion X that that means that he/she "takes orders" on how to conduct his/her public duties from his religious leaders. Frankly, I'd have hoped we'd put that one to rest back when JFK was elected president in 1960.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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I think it's a dangerous slippery slope when we presume that just because a person is a practicing member of Religion X that that means that he/she "takes orders" on how to conduct his/her public duties from his religious leaders. Frankly, I'd have hoped we'd put that one to rest back when JFK was elected president in 1960.

Except Rome threatened a US public official (Pelosi) with sanction this week.

[futuredivot 0]

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It is a part of their spiritual being.

Not if they can lay aside it's teachings so easily

If you don't agree with the teachings, don't go to that church. As far as I know (Limited because there's not a lot of Catholics where I live) No where does the church say "It's OK, you can get to heaven on your terms". It's not what they (the organization) believes. It stands for, right or wrong, moral absolutes and is correct when they say you can't be a member if you don't believe as we do because that is all a church is. A group of people that share the same belief system.

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[Andy9o8 2]

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I think it's a dangerous slippery slope when we presume that just because a person is a practicing member of Religion X that that means that he/she "takes orders" on how to conduct his/her public duties from his religious leaders. Frankly, I'd have hoped we'd put that one to rest back when JFK was elected president in 1960.

Except Rome threatened a US public official (Pelosi) with sanction this week.

Oh, I realize the Church hierarchy tries to give such orders to officials of countries' governments; and I think that's improper interference with a civil government. But it's quite another thing to presume that those officials take such orders; on the whole I think that they're entitled to the benefit of the doubt that they do not.

[nerdgirl 0]

One of the problems with using the kind of metric that one has to follow Roman Catholic Church doctrine in selecting candidates or w/r/t political positions is that in the US it leaves one very few candidates who one can support.

If one argues that one must follow Roman Catholic Church doctrine, policy, and teachings in one's voting, there has not been a Presidential candidate in the Republican party in the last 35+ years that one could vote for using your metric. As you wrote, “You can't cherry pick.”


To very closely paraphrase your words: The Church has not been shy about their stance on the death penalty. Members know that and if they choose to go against that, then they can't be a member. What's wrong with that?

Pope John Paul II called capital punishment “cruel and unnecessary.” See, the “Evangelium Vitae” (The Gospel of Life) issued 25 March 1995. The Catholic Church and its cardinals and bishops have issued numerous statements against the death penalty over the last 35 years, including opposition to death penalty for convicted terrorists.

If one favors legality of capital punishment, should they also be ousted from the Catholic Church? What about pro-capital punishment Catholic politicians? To be consonant with the teachings & doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church, by your argument/metric one must also be against the death penalty.

Again, to go back to your words: “They took a moral stand, that's what churches do. If they didn't have morals, they wouldn't be churches, they would be liberals.” Following your argument, since the church opposes something that make it’s a moral position. Again by your own construction, if one looks at those groups that support death penalty they “don’t have morals.” Therefore by your own construction, do conservatives who support the death penalty not have morals? Or If they didn't have morals, they wouldn't be churches, they would be conservatives? (I don't think so, but it's your construction/argument.)

To show how even more problematic the correlation is: if one uses the positions of the Catholic Church as the *sole* indicator of what is moral or not, all divorced people “don’t have morals” and all people who supported the invasion of Iraq “don’t have morals.” Pope John Paul II on opposition to Iraq War during a meeting with President Bush:

“You are very familiar with the unequivocal position of the Holy See in this regard, expressed in numerous documents, through direct and indirect contacts, and in the many diplomatic efforts which have been made since you visited me, first at Castelgandolfo on 23 July 2001, and again in this Apostolic Palace on 28 May 2002.”

Per Catholic policy, those who support torture “don’t have morals” based on your construction of who does or doesn't have morals. So it’s not just the stance on abortion that is problematic in terms of reconciling voting and position of the Catholic Church.

What it does seem -- & this is very much owned as my opinion -- is that abortion gets used a lot more by folks who don't like it to judge other folks. Whereas other areas in which the Catholic Church is unequivocal in opposition (death penalty, torture, Iraq War, nuclear weapons, etc) get selectively much less attention. Why is that?

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[jerryzflies 0]

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What it does seem -- & this is very much owned as my opinion -- is that abortion gets used a lot more by folks who don't like it to judge other folks. Whereas other areas in which the Catholic Church is unequivocal in opposition (death penalty, torture, Iraq War, nuclear weapons, etc) get selectively much less attention. Why is that?

/Marg

You know the answer to that perfectly well.

If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical.

[futuredivot 0]

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To very closely paraphrase your words: The Church has not been shy about their stance on the death penalty. Members know that and if they choose to go against that, then they can't be a member. What's wrong with that?

And I would have made the exact same post about that if the thread had been about the death penalty-it wasn't. My point is simple. The president of the club can decide who is allowed to be a member. All of this diffusion and expansion of the original subject doesn't change that. I don't care how Pelosi votes on that subject. I don't have a dog in that fight. I just don't think that a round of pope bashing is justified.
If I throw a party and you're not invited-don't come. If you were invited and act in a manner I don't approve of, you can bet I'll toss you out on your ass. If it's my show, it's my right.
If catholic upper management (or whatever they are called) say you can't come to their party-stay your ass at home-the relationship is on their terms, not yours. It's their right.

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[Andy9o8 2]

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The president of the club can decide who is allowed to be a member.......... If I throw a party and you're not invited-don't come. If you were invited and act in a manner I don't approve of, you can bet I'll toss you out on your ass. If it's my show, it's my right.
If catholic upper management (or whatever they are called) say you can't come to their party-stay your ass at home-the relationship is on their terms, not yours. It's their right.

All analogies are, by definition, deficient.
Even allowing for that, yours particularly blows.

[futuredivot 0]

Let me guess, you disagree.

You are only as strong as the prey you devour