"Nothing has done more to make us dumber or meaner than the anonymity of the Internet."

[NWFlyer 2]

Interesting premise (and some of the comments following the article are hilarious in a "missed the point" kind of way). I'm not sure that the Internet has made us meaner, but it certainly provides a venue for an awful lot of ugliness. You only need to read the Incidents forum here to see that.

The full article is pretty long (but a worthwhile read, I think) - here's a few snippets.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2009/02/13/notes021309.DTL

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You already know the reason: Anonymous commenting. Those semi-public forums like the one you see right down there, at the bottom of this very column, those "community" discussion areas borne of the blogosphere and spread to every media site imaginable, from SFGate to the New York Times to YouTube to Knitting World. Indeed, they're one of the most popular, widely used innovations of the Web 2.0 revolution, and they've dramatically transformed public communication and conversation.

For the worse. Oh, for the far, far worse.

I didn't always think so. I was, for years, an enthusiastic advocate of the egalitarian, free-for-all, let's-level-the-playing field aspect of the Web. More voices! More feedback! More participation! Bring it on!

Not anymore. As I've mentioned before, I now tend to agree with "West Wing" creator Aaron Sorkin, who said, "Nothing has done more to make us dumber or meaner than the anonymity of the Internet." Hyperbole? Not by much.

...

For the first time in more than a century, a fundamental shift occurred in the sacred -- but formerly quite cold and detached -- writer/reader relationship. Suddenly, readers could respond instantly to a newspaper piece, to the journalist in question, and authors could instantly know the effect and accuracy of their words. No more hand-written, snail-mailed Letters to the Editor that might (but probably won't) get published two or three weeks later. The feedback loop was made instant, and enormously compelling. It was lauded as a new era, one that would change the newspaper biz forever.

Or maybe not. Because now, that once-revolutionary connection, all those vibrant reader interactions I once cherished, have changed again. Or more accurately, have devolved dramatically.

That sacred relationship is no longer the slightest bit sacred. If you've ever spent much time in the comment boards of this or any major media site (or, of course, any popular blog), you already know: Anonymity tends to bring out the absolute worst in people, the meanest and nastiest and least considerate. Something about not having to reveal who you really are caters to the basest, most unkind instincts of the human animal. Go figure.

Thoughtful discourse? Humorous insight? Sometimes. But mostly it's a tactless spectator sport. It's about being seen, about out-snarking the previous poster, about trying to top one another in the quest for... I'm not sure what. A tiny shot of notoriety? The feeling of being "published" on a major media site? Or is it the thrill that can only come from hurling a verbal Molotov at the Great Satan of "corporate media," and then running away like a snorting 8-year-old? All of the above?

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[vortexring 0]

Some pretty fascinating assumptions. Maybe it's more about having a medium to say whatever you like, without normal consequences? Maybe it's a medium where an individual can express themselves through means and subjects they wouldn't/couldn't do in their normal life? Maybe it's an opportunity to be somebody they're not? Such as something simple like an extrovert? Maybe it's a medium to further express their normal selves to a wider audience? Keep in touch with friends? Discuss hacked top secret NASA files containing aliens??

Freedom to be whoever you want to be, whenever you like?

edit: Look at Jakee - He's actually a Church Minister in real life. You'd never have thought so would you?

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[kelpdiver 2]

I think this is mostly a matter of viewing the past with rosy glasses. What's meaner than a lynch mob (a literal one)? For all the dirty tricks in elections now, in the 19th Century each side spread lies about adultery and fathering children and all kinds of nasty shit.

As for spreading wisdom or being dumber, I strongly disagree on this one. Anonymity allows people to comment without retribution about their employer, the club, or make statements on any subject that could get them fired (example, people attending a political function has been fired by a company that didn't want the association). And the same scale issue that can allow bullies to extend around the globe also allows us to talk to people around the world. DZ is a case that shows this - we're as anonymous as we want to be here and represent most of the world, or at least everywhere that that supports a luxury like skydiving.

Sfgate is a particularly disfunctional forum community. It skews radically to the right and attracts people who seem to have a great difficulty living in a liberal metropolis. It also seems to have a lot of people who don't have a life beyond the keyboard or couch, and every time someone dies in the water, the air, the mountains, or off a motorcycle, we hear a chorus of folks who are completely different from us in their philosophy on acceptable risk.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

I see a lot of behavior in traffic that wouldn't be tolerated if it wasn't for the anonymity and isolation and protection we get from our cars.
There's also a lot of garbage on the CB radio (to the point that I usually leave it off) that is simply idiots and cowards and jerks hiding behind the anonymity of the microphone.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[vortexring 0]

The bravery of being out of range?

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

That, and the simple fact that you don't have to face anybody.
Nobody cuts into line at the bank or the grocery store. But in traffic, running up to the front of the line and jumping in is common. Would they do it if they had to face the people they were cutting in front of ?

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[vortexring 0]

Probably, if they were Polish!

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[nerdgirl 0]

Thanks for the article. A lot of thought-provoking, & germane ideas in it. A lot of the issues brought up don't have easy answers.

I do agree that the internet can facilitate the propagation of mean and dumb behavior. The lens through which I view it is that anonymous behavior can sometimes (not always) be a window to someone's behavior. If you’re mean or nasty when you're anonymous, what does that say w/r/t your non-anonymous behavior? When a guy takes me out to dinner, if he’s nasty to the waiter/waitress, there’s rarely a second date. (A further example that illustrates that rude behavior does not require cyberspace.)

I am also viscerally cognizant of the rape and death threats against Kathy Sierra, who blogged (past tense) about computers and more user-friendly programming with some of the most fabulous images/graphics this side of xkcd. That & similar accounts is one significant reason why I largely stay anonymous on this forum - a choice that was further reinforced after I got death threats via PMs.

At the same time, I appreciate & highly value the freedom & exploration afforded by anonymity. I would assert that one *can* be critical without invoking profanity, ad hominems, or other behavior too common on much of the internet. And concur heartily w/Jason w/r/t the a-historic idea/implication that this is somehow a new behavior traits among humans.

I see it as something of a personal responsibility issue ... but it's hard to prove.
/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[wmw999 2,587]

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I got death threats via PMs

WTF???

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[vortexring 0]

Do see your point(s) Marg; indeed, it is a personal responsibility issue, unless of course an individual escapes from his personal responsibilities through the internet, which doesn't make him less personally responsible but perhaps negates, through cyberspace, his personal responsibilities, and. . . .

This issue with the death threats via PM's - I seriously hope relevant investigations and effective actions have been taken against the perpetrator. I don't know of anyone on the internet who takes as much time and effort to make his or hers posts and threads as informative, relevant and personally non-confrontational as you.

Anyway, on a lighter note, sometimes it's fun to invoke 'profanity, ad hominems, or other behavior too common on much of the internet.'

But only where there's at least a perception the receiver can at least take it in some form of jest, and a perception where the receiver has the intellect to understand how superfluous the internet can be if one allows it to be. And doesn't.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[Capt.Slog 0]

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I got death threats via PMs

WTF???

Wendy W.

Some people can't deal with the facts Marg posts, I guess.

[Amazon 7]

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The bravery of being out of range?

The thing about DIZZIE DOT COM... that I really like.. is how many real down to earth decent people I have met..from here.

On the other hand... some of those who can be real dick licks on here .... dont seem to show up at boogies or their "home" DZ's.. that has been a real plus


Those are the ones I REALLLY love to wind up

[vortexring 0]

Hence the reason for being 'dick licks' I suppose. I've always been fond of the idea of at least a genuine SC get together somewhere. It couldn't be a DZ though - it'd have to be a bar. Imagine the conversation fight?

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[NWFlyer 2]

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The thing about DIZZIE DOT COM... that I really like.. is how many real down to earth decent people I have met..from here.

Agreed - there's plenty of people on here with whom I may disagree on one, many, or most political viewpoints, but we can still hang out and have an interesting, intelligent (or mindless) conversation around a bonfire and have a great time jumping together. But that's because behind their viewpoints, there stands a real, living, breathing human being because they're willing to say "this is me and this is what I stand for." I can't do that with anonymous posters. Believe me, there's been times (often in the topical forums, not here) where I've wanted to make a point so badly that I thought about creating a fake screen name to do it ... and then I thought ... nope. If I can't stand behind my point with my own name, then I've no business getting into the discussion online.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Amazon 7]

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Hence the reason for being 'dick licks' I suppose. I've always been fond of the idea of at least a genuine SC get together somewhere. It couldn't be a DZ though - it'd have to be a bar. Imagine the conversation fight?

Well I am setting the wheels in motion to come work in the UK for a couple years.... and I look forward meeting some of you guys when I get over there. There are NONE of the Brits here in SC I would not love to meet... and get that Auld English Pub experience and buy a few pints

[vortexring 0]

I remember you asking about UK DZ's and weather recently! Easy answer - weather is as poo as NW America - but please let me know when you reckon you'll arrive, I'd be delighted to give you that Auld Scottish pub experience - make it a particular date in the summer and I might even have you up in the whirligig machine! Ya'll love it - be wanting to jump out in no time! Either way, it'll be a laugh!

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[Amazon 7]

Well I have to check out the family lands in Scotland too.. although I can trace more ancestry on the South side of Hadrians Wall.

[vortexring 0]

Ref. PM I'll look at what I can see to pass onto yourself; although I'm a bit gutted you're a root-vegatable/rainbow trout boxhead like!

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[riddler 0]

It's likely that half or more of the mean, racist, and otherwise foul comments that we see on the boards are 10 to 14 year old kids. They have the time to do it, they're at an age where they want to break the rules and see everyone's reaction, and there's zero liability for their actions. The anonymous "post your thoughts here" textboxes are the modern equivalent of putting out free spray-paint cans in front of a brick wall - rational people will see no use for it, and kids (or arrested-development adults) will spray paint large penises and snicker.

Edit for spelling

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[happythoughts 0]

Dumber and meaner...

I would say that the internet makes us better informed.
It provides much more information of many varieties.
An argument is generally presented that the information
is flawed in value. However, it can always be discarded
after consideration, and that is the positive side.

Dumb? At least people have the opportunity to get information.

Mean? Anonymity has always bred meanness.
People in large cities are rude just to be mean.

People in small towns realize that I will see them
next week also, and not always at their convenience.
Actions have consequences.

The anonymity of the internet is the problem.

(If people don't know me, it may be my choice.

[Andy9o8 2]

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It's likely that half or more of the mean, racist, and otherwise foul comments that we see on the boards are 10 to 14 year old kids. They have the time to do it, they're at an age where they want to break the rules and see everyone's reaction, and there's zero liability for their actions. The anonymous "post your thoughts here" textboxes are the modern equivalent of putting out free spray-paint cans in front of a brick wall - rational people will see no use for it, and kids (or arrested-development adults) will spray paint large penises and snicker.

In Bonfire, the recent thread, "Peeing with a boner" was viewed 791 times and has 26 posts, presumably by adults.

[happythoughts 0]

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In Bonfire, the recent thread, "Peeing with a boner" was viewed 791 times and has 26 posts, presumably by adults.

Sure, but where else can you discuss that?

"Today's sermon is on the topic of... fart jokes..."

[wmw999 2,587]

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In Bonfire, the recent thread, "Peeing with a boner" was viewed 791 times and has 26 posts, presumably by adults.

Don't dis that thread -- it was almost as funny as the nut-waxing one a couple of years ago

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[nerdgirl 0]

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Agreed - there's plenty of people on here with whom I may disagree on one, many, or most political viewpoints, but we can still hang out and have an interesting, intelligent (or mindless) conversation around a bonfire and have a great time jumping together. But that's because behind their viewpoints, there stands a real, living, breathing human being because they're willing to say "this is me and this is what I stand for." I can't do that with anonymous posters. Believe me, there's been times (often in the topical forums, not here) where I've wanted to make a point so badly that I thought about creating a fake screen name to do it ... and then I thought ... nope. If I can't stand behind my point with my own name, then I've no business getting into the discussion online.

That’s one interpretation/perspective. And from multiple perspectives I am sympathetic. Credibility from personal experience (& that does include professional education and experience) is important. And those personal experiences can add context that may be difficult to convey with the limitations of ASCII text and average attention span of SC-readership. (Goodness knows, I’ve pushed the latter.

I would argue that if I have to resort to invoking ‘who I am’ or ‘what I’ve done/published’ or ‘where I’ve sat’ in order to make a point then my argument or point may not be as sound or rigorous as I would perceive/believe it. The veracity or rejection of argument should not be based on the (perceived) identity of a poster, i.e., whether I or *any* other poster makes it.

At the end of the day, it comes down to choices to minimize threat to personal safety. If everyone’s identify was shared (& verified), it might be different. Instead, there is an asymmetry of lots of lurkers and individuals who are not known, in some cases by anyone it seems. At the same time, one might be careful what one asks for implicitly … some folks already get notified every time I publish something new or speak or whatever.

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[Coreece 190]

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there's plenty of people on here with whom I may disagree on one, many, or most political viewpoints, but we can still hang out and have an interesting, intelligent (or mindless) conversation around a bonfire and have a great time jumping together. But that's because behind their viewpoints, there stands a real, living, breathing human being because they're willing to say "this is me and this is what I stand for."

This reminds me of one of the most profound statements I've heard on SC...It went something along the lines of..."...but in real life, you'd probably have more common sense."

guess who said that!?

(and no...it wasn't me)

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...