MikeForsythe 0 #26 February 12, 2009 Quotelet's see what you're saying here. No, that is what YOU are saying. Quote Does that mean that lift doesn't exist and it's actually God that picks up planes and carries them across the sky? Of course it fucking doesn't, and anyone who seriously suggested it would be an idiot.So are you saying that GOD could not do that? Are you saying that both cannot be true?QuoteYou wouldn't throw out the fundamental basics of physics because we don't know every single detail of materials science or fluid dynamics yet, but you want to throw out the fundamental basics of biology because we don't know every detail of materials science or fluid dynamics yet.Not at all, what I am saying is I do not have a 100% faith in science as it is not 100% perfect.Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeForsythe 0 #27 February 12, 2009 QuoteEvidence makes science more believable the God!! There is no tangible evidence for God, science is based on tangible evidence. If that is true then why does 90% of the population believe otherwise?Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,595 #28 February 12, 2009 QuoteAccording to you. What makes your beliefs any better or more true that those who have the opposite view? Because what I believe is the most widely researched and supported scientific theory in history. What the other side believes is the ramblings of a bunch of ancient nomadic tribesman. Here's the thing, just because the two side strenuously disagree, the chances that either of them are right is not 50/50. QuoteCan you not discuss the issues without becoming hostile? Can you not respect others views that have respected yours without attacking you as a person? They don't. In case you haven't noticed, the morons at the forefront of the religious crusade tend not to be the most civil of people. In any case, given the absurdity of their views, and the damage that could be done if they had their way in the courts and the classrooms, I see absolutely no need to be nice about them. Their views are stupid.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #29 February 12, 2009 Numbers of believers can't make it a fact. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,595 #30 February 12, 2009 QuoteQuoteEvidence makes science more believable the God!! There is no tangible evidence for God, science is based on tangible evidence. If that is true then why does 90% of the population believe otherwise? Once again Mike, what does this tell you? ""Among those with high-school educations or less who have an opinion on Darwin's theory, more say they do not believe in evolution than say they believe in it," Gallup found. "For all other groups, and in particular those who have at least a college degree, belief is significantly higher than nonbelief." Just 21 percent of respondents who had up to a high school level of education believe in evolution, compared with 74 percent of those with postgraduate degrees." Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeForsythe 0 #31 February 12, 2009 Quote Numbers of believers can't may not make it a fact. Fixed it for youTime and pressure will always show you who a person really is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #32 February 12, 2009 QuoteQuoteIntelligent design is another THEORY and is the biblical explanation. ID hardly warrants the label of Theory - it's not science based it's a fairly tale at best. Theories at least have a thread of tangible and logical substance. ID Does not. ID is not a scientific theory. Period. It is not falsifiable. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeForsythe 0 #33 February 12, 2009 QuoteBecause what I believe is the most widely researched and supported scientific theory in history. What the other side believes is the ramblings of a bunch of ancient nomadic tribesman. Here's the thing, just because the two side strenuously disagree, the chances that either of them are right is not 50/50. Again, that is according to you.QuoteThey don't. In case you haven't noticed, the morons at the forefront of the religious crusade tend not to be the most civil of people. In any case, given the absurdity of their views, and the damage that could be done if they had their way in the courts and the classrooms, I see absolutely no need to be nice about them. Their views are stupid.So based on what you say everyone is "stupid" since the views of some of the non-religious people have been just as destructive. It is interesting that you allow your lack of civility to be determined by those who you accuse of the same behavior.Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeForsythe 0 #34 February 12, 2009 QuoteOnce again Mike, what does this tell you?It tells me nothing since I don't know the methodology, demographics, focus point, etc. of how it was conducted, manipulated or reported. Just because it is on the internet does not make it true or give it credibility.Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #35 February 12, 2009 QuoteQuoteEvidence makes science more believable the God!! There is no tangible evidence for God, science is based on tangible evidence. If that is true then why does 90% of the population believe otherwise? Because they want to or are stupid. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,595 #36 February 12, 2009 QuoteQuoteOnce again Mike, what does this tell you?It tells me nothing since I don't know the methodology, demographics, focus point, etc. of how it was conducted, manipulated or reported. Just because it is on the internet does not make it true or give it credibility. So what was your claim about "90% of the population" based on? What was your methodology on that one? Or were you just spouting unsupported bullshit?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #37 February 12, 2009 Quote Quote Evidence makes science more believable the God!! There is no tangible evidence for God, science is based on tangible evidence. If that is true then why does 90% of the population believe otherwise? From where did your 90% number come? From the Fox News article cited by the OP in this thread: "A new poll released just in time for Charles Darwin's 200th birthday found only 39 percent of Americans say they 'believe in the theory of evolution' and just 24 percent of those who attend church weekly believe in the explanation for the origin of life. "The Gallup survey, released Wednesday, found a quarter of those polled do not believe in evolution, and 36 percent say they don't have an opinion either way. "The poll of 1,018 American adults, found strong ties between education level and belief in the theory. "Among those with high-school educations or less who have an opinion on Darwin's theory, more say they do not believe in evolution than say they believe in it," Gallup found. "For all other groups, and in particular those who have at least a college degree, belief is significantly higher than nonbelief." "Just 21 percent of respondents who had up to a high school level of education believe in evolution, compared with 74 percent of those with postgraduate degrees." And if the pollster would have asked me, I probably would have responded "No, I don't believe in evolution. It's not about believing or not. It's about data, evidence, direct observation of evolution happening, genomics, proteomics ... & I'd probably immediately be placed on the 'do not call' lists What this is indicative of, im-ever-ho, is a (1) decline in science education, (2) commodification of science, which opens it to rhetorical questioning, e.g., he said/he said-style arguments (cuz the reality is that, with variations across fields, most scientists & engineers are men), and (3) general anti-intellectual trends of the late 20th Century, including some specific ones in the US. When do I see more data to support that: "31% of the public believes in astrology including 36% of women and 43% of those aged 25 to 29 but only 17% of people aged 65 and over, and 25% of men." And trends across nations regarding "belief" in evolution. Only Turkey had a lower percentage (of the countries surveyed) than the US. Two easily found examples. One study in Britian even claimed to find that more people believe in ghosts than the Judeo-Christian God ... veracity of that poll needs further examination, imo. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,595 #38 February 12, 2009 QuoteAgain, that is according to you. No "according" neccesary. Evolution has sparked an unprecedented amount of reasearch. Creationists do believe a book written by ancient tribesmen. When two sides disagree, there is not a 50/50 chance which one is right. QuoteSo based on what you say everyone is "stupid" since the views of some of the non-religious people have been just as destructive. No, that is not what I said. Try again.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ion01 2 #39 February 12, 2009 Evolutionary theory is more dogma than science. People are told its a proven fact and not to question it. Why not question it if its a proven fact.....because its not a proven fact and does not actually follow the rules of science. If people question it they find the holes and flaws so they are told not to. When true science is conducted evolution fails miserably. No one can explain how a irreducibly complex mechanism can form. According to the rules of evolution a cell with a non working flagella will be eliminated due to survival of the fittest. The flagella must form all at one time (not to mention that mutations are supposed to be the cause of evolution but mutations are not passed to the child organism). Another example would be how is a half bird half lizard more adapt? It can run as fast as a lizard or fly.....therefore it is eliminated. Evolution is in conflict with its own rules and therefore cannot stand. Any debate based on evolution is worthless as evolutions base, on which everything is standing, is false. It like saying if A=4 then A+1+2+3=10 but A does not equal 4 so the whole equation fails as it is reliant on A equaling 4. Evolution has not be observed or experimented with in the lab (if you don't know why this is important look up what the scientific method is) and therefore is not scientific. What little is claimed to be observed or experimented with has simple scientific explanation other than evolution. One cannot claim a genetic change and evolution happened to a bunch of flies in a lab that mated with flies that ate similar fruit without proof that thier was a genetic change and that change was not part of the standard dominant, non-dominant gene change, that it is passed on to its children,that it provides an advantage, that the apparent choice in mates was outs standard variability (if one flips a coin they very rarely get a 50/50 result)....and thats just for starters. What little evolutionists have is flawed and not science, if any scientist voices opposition they are silenced, and, once again, there shouldn't even be a debate as the very basis of evolution stops evolution from happening so there is nothing to argue about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeForsythe 0 #40 February 12, 2009 Quote So what was your claim about "90% of the population" based on? What was your methodology on that one? or were you just spouting unsupported bullshit? Your hostility is getting the best of you. It was not my claim, do the research and find out for yourself. I posted it trying to get opinions about it. Personally I don't tend to go with non-fact based belief. Remember that most people once believed the earth was flat.Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #41 February 12, 2009 It looks like you are parroting someone else with out doing any actual investigation of evolution on your own. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeForsythe 0 #42 February 12, 2009 Quote And if the pollster would have asked me, I probably would have responded "No, I don't believe in evolution. It's not about believing or not. It's about data, evidence, direct observation of evolution happening, genomics, proteomics ... & I'd probably immediately be placed on the 'do not call' lists Good pointTime and pressure will always show you who a person really is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #43 February 12, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteEvidence makes science more believable the God!! There is no tangible evidence for God, science is based on tangible evidence. If that is true then why does 90% of the population believe otherwise? Because they want to or are stupid. Honestly, I don't think it's so much about "stupidity." Yes, decline in robust science education does play a role. I suspect that there may oven be an evolutionary biology explanation for some of the resistance to evolution ... even to deity sparked Big Bang (which is *NOT* ID): an extension of Maslow's needs. I was in Galveston a couple weeks ago. Running along the seawall and looking out into the Gulf, I was listening to a podcast about Carl Sagan's ideas on and practice of spirituality (defined in a most holistic sense that is completely reconcilable/reconciled with science): One of the neatest parts to me was the discussion of Sagan's role is getting this picture taken by Voyager as it reached farther than any human-created device had gone into the Universe and the commentary he gave: "We succeeded in taking that picture [from deep space], and, if you look at it, you see a dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever lived, lived out their lives. The aggregate of all our joys and sufferings, thousands of confident religions, ideologies and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilizations, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every hopeful child, every mother and father, every inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every superstar, every supreme leader, every saint and sinner in the history of our species, lived there on a mote of dust, suspended in a sunbeam. "The earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that in glory and in triumph they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of the dot on scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner of the dot. How frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds. "Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity -- in all this vastness -- there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves. It is up to us. "It's been said that astronomy is a humbling, and I might add, a character-building experience. To my mind, there is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly and compassionately with one another and to preserve and cherish that pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known." Moreso than just that picture and his commentary, it was thinking about it is comparison with the almost iconic stature that the Apollo image of Earth has attained, in which the Earth fills the full screen. We've all seen & recognize the Apollo picture ... but we don't have that same sort of iconic association with the pale blue dot image ... why? (More rhetorical question than interrogative ...) Is it because the Apollo ones makes the Earth seem much more important than the other??? The 'pale blue dot' picture was taken from 43 AU. That's pretty close in the grand scheme of things. Humans want (extension of Maslow's needs) to feel significant at some level – to their families and the people they love, in their work and community. But where does the need for significance or “specialness” end? Or when is it fulfilled that we don't need to extend our "specialness" further out into the Universe? Is it something about our species? Is there any evolutionary origin? Or cultural? (E.g., compare with Japanese and Chinese culture.) Evolution challenges that 'specialness' of humans on Earth. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #44 February 12, 2009 I would put that under the 'want to' catagory. I recognize that many people feel the need to believe in deitys simply because it makes them feel special or that they have a purpose in life. I think they are deluding themselves. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeForsythe 0 #45 February 12, 2009 QuoteI think they are deluding themselves.Is it if it brings them happiness and a good life?Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #46 February 12, 2009 Their happiness and good life depends on what they do not so much on what they believe. Although the power of positive thinking does help it is due to the psychology of humans not due to some deity. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #47 February 12, 2009 QuoteScience has been wrong many of time, so what makes science any more believable than belief in GOD? Because Science is a process which uses observation and experimentation aimed at arriving at the best answer to the question at hand. "Science" cannot be "wrong". As a result of experimentation a hypothesis may need to be revised in order to address inconsistencies. But then it is, the experiment is re-run and if it supports the hypothesis then it is re-run again. That's the beauty of science. It has to be reproducible. Reproduce it often enough and you are well on your way to establishing a theory. Gravity is a great example. But science and belief in God are not necessarily mutually exclusive. You could easily argue that Science is a way of observing and explaining "God's creation" and serve both paradigms. However if rote belief in a narrowly defined diety as manifested by a the culling of a few historical human writings, supported by imagery created through classical paintings by Roman honkies, for Roman honkies, then IMO, you're not using your God given gray matter to it's potential. But that's simply my opinion, and a run-on sentence. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #48 February 12, 2009 Sure, if that life and happiness are based upon and inaccuracy. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #49 February 12, 2009 QuoteQuoteI think they are deluding themselves.Is it if it brings them happiness and a good life? How do you see evolution as having impacted your having or not having a good life? Unless you, a family member, or close friend died from an MRSA or has/had XDTB or other pathogen that has evolved antibiotic resistance, I'm not sure where the correlation or causality is. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #50 February 12, 2009 QuoteFrom the Fox News article cited by the OP in this thread: "A new poll released just in time for Charles Darwin's 200th birthday found only 39 percent of Americans say they 'believe in the theory of evolution' and just 24 percent of those who attend church weekly believe in the explanation for the origin of life. If you read this closely it confirms some of the things Marg has been saying. There is clearly a lack of science education when even the reporter writing the piece doesn't understand what evolution is. Evolution says nothing about the origin of life. Evolution and abiogenesis are separate theories, neither one depending on the other. Evolution explains the variation of species, that is all. How life originated is a whole different topic. Why any discussion of evolution quickly turns into a religion vs. atheism debate is beyond me. Evolution and religion are completely compatible. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
