question for liberals..

[Capt.Slog 0]

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I don't believe that anyone including GW himself wanted a 'war' in Iraq. Can you give me one good reason why someone would want a war?

edit: to change my mind
I'm not going there with you. There are other posts related to this argument. If you don't believe in what Iraqi people stand for in 2009 elections then we agree to disagree. This thread is about the pros and cons of government welfare.

Why am I not suprised that you don't want to go there?

It puts your whining about the stimulus package into a context that shows how silly and hypocritical it is.

Bush's administration added $5Trillion to the national debt and still left us in the worst economic mess for generations.

[Capt.Slog 0]

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I don't believe that anyone including GW himself wanted a 'war' in Iraq. Can you give me one good reason why someone would want a war?

.

There wasn't a GOOD reason - there was only Bush's trumped up reason.

And a $Trillion went down the tubes.

[DanG 1]

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What's the difference between a welfare recipient buying Doritos with food stamps and a CEO buying a Lear Jet with baleout money?

Please see above.

The poor person is much more likely to actually spend their money than the rich person.

- Dan G

[Andy9o8 2]

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This whole thread is actually rather stupid and patronizing anyway.

Yep, pretty much in that order.

[billvon 3,107]

>What's the difference between a welfare recipient buying Doritos with
>food stamps and a CEO buying a Lear Jet with baleout money?

A CEO is not going to spend his last dime on the jet. He's only going to buy it if he has plenty of money in the bank.

[loumeinhart 0]

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The OP is questioning the wisdom of the current stimulus bill because he saw a woman buy Doritos

I'm OK with the Doritos, it's the lotto tickets that set me off. She could have used that cash for the doritoes. Then again you could say that a portion of the lotto ticket sales is going to the state and she is partially funding her own Doritos.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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How many poor neighbors run to the store to buy "food" on the tax dime compared to those who line up to buy Doritos though?

I believe most use the help responsibly. Just like teenagers, truckdrivers and skydivers-The bad apples stand out, and the ones who behave and follow the rules fade into the background.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[Amazon 7]

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The OP is questioning the wisdom of the current stimulus bill because he saw a woman buy Doritos

I'm OK with the Doritos, it's the lotto tickets that set me off. She could have used that cash for the doritoes. Then again you could say that a portion of the lotto ticket sales is going to the state and she is partially funding her own Doritos.

Are you related to Dan Quayle?

[SpeedRacer 1]

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Student loans, roads (allow me to get to work, allow me to get food) patent office (allows me to establish my intellectual property) FCC (allows my company to design things that work in specific frequency bands) and basic research funding (got CDMA off the ground a long time ago)

I disagree. I don't think that the FCC and roads are welfare or stimulus.

If the government spends money and it has an effect on furthering the welfare of some group of people, then it is a stimulus.

Student loans and FHA housing loans ARE a stimulus. And yes, they did help me.

Oh also, I was working at a biotech company and in December 2002 30% of the workforce was laid off, including me. It took me nearly 6 months to find a job, and during that time I collected Unemployment Checks. (another stimulus, this one much more like a "Welfare Program")

I have been working as a biologist for about 20 years though, and that is the only time that ever happened to me, so obviously I have paid far more into the system than I took out.

That doesn't mean the Unemployment Checks were not a stimulus though. They helped me to keep paying my mortgage & other bills until I could find another job.

Think about this: Sometimes when government stimuli are GOOD INVESTMENTS!! Such as the Student Loan & the FHA housing Loan I received. The government, and the country as a whole, actually benefitted from giving those loans to me.

Speed Racer
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[alge 0]

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My government payed for free education from I was 6 to 25, student loans + subsidies payed for my housing when I moved away to study at 19. Summer jobs payed for my skydiving career. (: Note that my family is not poor by any measure, so I probably could have made it through the US system to get a similar grade relying on my parents instead of the government. I'm also (happily) paying a fuckload of taxes at the moment so I'd say it's more of an investment by the government than welfare.

Good example … especially w/r/t illustrating differences, imo.

How does the homogeneity of Norway’s population compare to the US? Ethnically, religiously, and economically?

[For the record - I'm pretty far out on the left/liberal side, even for Norwegians. (See here.) I've tried to separate my opinions from fact, but I'm sure some will interpret it as communist propaganda or w/e.]

Compared to the US we are very homogenous - quoting the CIA factbook, we're 94.4% ethnically Norwegians, 3.4% Europeans and 2% others. (Most immigrants by far are from Sweden.)

On the religious side we're kind of opposite of the US. We do (unfortunately imho) have a pretty strong tie between the church and the state, with the State Church having 82% of the population listed as members. But most people registered in the church hardly ever go to church. It seems to me like most people are agnostics. The political debate tends to avoid religion as well; I have no idea what the religious beliefs of the individuals from the current administration are.

This "in theory religious, in practice very secular" as opposed to your "in theory secular, in practice religious" is the same strange difference as our government type. As a constitutional monarchy, you would think that we're less democratic than the US republic. In practice we seem to have a more democratic (imho: healthy) political system, with multiple parties, no political commercials on TV, and you can actually get to the top without being a millionaire. The king has next to no real power, acting more like a moral / spiritual leader.

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How do cultural norms regarding commons or shared space differ? The US, there is a concept of the ‘tragedy of the commons’; in Norway there’s a concept of shared responsibility for upkeep and maintenance of shared space in a tangible. My Norwegian is fairly basic, the idea that I’m trying to convey is ‘doog nout’ [phonetic, not correct spelling, sorry ].

It's spelled "dugnad". (= Our skydiving club is a good example: Everything's based on voluntary work. The only monetary compensation is for the tandem instructors and vidiots. I wouldn't say people are rushing around trying to find new ways to help eachother, but most members seem to be willing to sacrifice some amount of time make the club prosper. The traditional "dugnad" where people living in a particular neighourhood gets together to clean and fix stuff seems to be in a decline. However, the total amount of voluntary work is actually increasing. It just happens in sports clubs and similar instead of in the neighbourhood. Stimulating voluntary work is also mentioned in the current administration's political platform declaration.

Oh by the way - the Swedish dropzones really kick our asses when it comes to "dugnad". When it comes to everyone helping out to make stuff happen they seem to be in a different league than the rest of the world. Hats off to 'em. (:

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How about traditional norms regarding exceptionalism?
[ .. american individualism .. ]
While the American culture emphasizes the individual, individuality, and competition, the Norwegian culture does not from what I have seen (unless one invokes Sweden). One can see that in the differences in laws w/r/t private property, trespassing, & camping on someone else’s property.

We certainly do recognize exceptionality when it occurs. Take Magnus Carlsen, the guy who became Grandmaster in Chess at 13 years of age. We're fiercly proud of the Norwegians who are recognized abroad. Other examples include Nansen, or in our particular sub-culture, the Skywalkers freefly team.

But in normal life the focus is more on the society than the individual - compared to the States, at least. While most people aren't too enthusiastic about paying our rather high taxes, they also seem pretty content with the system that favours the society above the individual. Most people will use the public health care system, even if there are longer queues there than for the private clinics.

The biggest downside to this society over individual mentality, imho, is the Jante Law. (That article is an interesting read, even if it lacks any good sources.) In some communities it's quite a challenge to get along if you don't fit in with the norm. But that's probably true for most rural communites throughout the world..

[nerdgirl 0]

Thank you for the thoughtful, detailed response. Very much appreciated. Your English is *much* better!

Thanks for the link to Jante law -- was familiar with the concept notionally but not the specific name. My unauthorized armchair anthropologist finds the ideas & comparative cultures interesting ... mostly for speculative hypothesizing.

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying