question for liberals..

[akarunway 1]

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I think government subsidized student loans qualify as welfare and/or stimulus. MAny people underestimate the huge impact these have on the average college student, many of whom could not attend without.

It's a LOAN dude. It ain't fuckin WELFARE.

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[alge 0]

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Who among you has arrived at where you are today with your jobs, property, careers, etc.. as a result of government welfare or stimulus?

So, I'm both a liberal in the correct and your seriously misunderstood "left==liberal" sense..

My government payed for free education from I was 6 to 25, student loans + subsidies payed for my housing when I moved away to study at 19. Summer jobs payed for my skydiving career. (: Note that my family is not poor by any measure, so I probably could have made it through the US system to get a similar grade relying on my parents instead of the government. I'm also (happily) paying a fuckload of taxes at the moment so I'd say it's more of an investment by the government than welfare.

Now, why did you ask?

[loumeinhart 0]

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Now, why did you ask?

because I stood behind a person that used her "Ohio Direction card" for Doritos then spent 3 minutes purchasing lotto tickets with cash. I was pissed. She had 3 kids in her SUV waiting outside.

I asked because it seems to me that welfare is a liberal idea and I wanted to know if anyone had actually achieved upward mobility from it.

[loumeinhart 0]

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i dunno...i was a lil kid. were the groceries only for staving people who were dying?

wtf the matter with you?

I simply don't want to buy your groceries. Is that fair?
thank you.

[loumeinhart 0]

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Student loans, roads (allow me to get to work, allow me to get food) patent office (allows me to establish my intellectual property) FCC (allows my company to design things that work in specific frequency bands) and basic research funding (got CDMA off the ground a long time ago)

I disagree. I don't think that the FCC and roads are welfare or stimulus.

[billvon 3,107]

>I don't think that the FCC and roads are welfare or stimulus.

In that case, do you consider the part of the stimulus package that is going to highway repair/construction to be ordinary spending and not stimulus?

[loumeinhart 0]

Ordinary spending. In what part of the country will Americans be unable to drive to work this summer if the stimulus bill fails?

[billvon 3,107]

>Ordinary spending.

OK. So by your reckoning, most of the spending in the stimulus bill is not stimulus; I presume therefore you do not object to most of it.

>In what part of the country will Americans be unable to drive to work this
>summer if the stimulus bill fails?

Minnesotans had a bit of a problem a year and a half ago because, in part, of a lack of this sort of spending:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-35W_Mississippi_River_bridge

[rushmc 23]

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>I don't think that the FCC and roads are welfare or stimulus.

In that case, do you consider the part of the stimulus package that is going to highway repair/construction to be ordinary spending and not stimulus?

What are you talking here sir? Say less than what, 2% maybe?

This bill has not a damned thing to do with economic recovery. Nothing at all

As you said, it ( the economy) will recover one way or another. So, why should we go 1 trillion more into debt then?

Dont bother, I know the answer. So do you......

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rehmwa 2]

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>Minnesotans had a bit of a problem a year and a half ago because, in part, of a lack of this sort of spending:

Take it from a Minnesotan - your statement is a big steamy pile.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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>Minnesotans had a bit of a problem a year and a half ago because, in part, of a lack of this sort of spending:

Take it from a Minnesotan - your statement is a big steamy pile.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 3,107]

Apparently it's two big steamy piles.

[nerdgirl 0]

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My government payed for free education from I was 6 to 25, student loans + subsidies payed for my housing when I moved away to study at 19. Summer jobs payed for my skydiving career. (: Note that my family is not poor by any measure, so I probably could have made it through the US system to get a similar grade relying on my parents instead of the government. I'm also (happily) paying a fuckload of taxes at the moment so I'd say it's more of an investment by the government than welfare.

Good example … especially w/r/t illustrating differences, imo.

How does the homogeneity of Norway’s population compare to the US? Ethnically, religiously, and economically?

How do cultural norms regarding commons or shared space differ? The US, there is a concept of the ‘tragedy of the commons’; in Norway there’s a concept of shared responsibility for upkeep and maintenance of shared space in a tangible. My Norwegian is fairly basic, the idea that I’m trying to convey is ‘doog nout’ [phonetic, not correct spelling, sorry ].

How about traditional norms regarding exceptionalism?

The US valorizes, celebrates, and rewards the exceptional. Why? I attribute it to both history and geography. America – the nation-state-- was formed by rabble-rousers. Iconoclasts. Stubborn, tenacious folks. Those who left Europe, particularly in the late 1700s and 1800s, didn’t do so because life was good for them in the old country. For most, it wasn’t easy here. We also has a lot of space to expand into. Don’t like your neighbor – move west. It’s in our psyche & our history. It’s a cultural meme that we were taught and that we teach our children: “Manifest destiny” and “rugged individualism” necessitate and simultaneously feed the strong sense of individual liberties and personal freedoms. That drives innovation … or at least makes the ‘weirdos’ who propose outlandish new ways of doing things less likely to be socially dis-incentivized or shunned (once they get out of high school )

While the American culture emphasizes the individual, individuality, and competition, the Norwegian culture does not from what I have seen (unless one invokes Sweden). One can see that in the differences in laws w/r/t private property, trespassing, & camping on someone else’s property.

What works well in Norway may (or may not) work well in the US. And there may be policies from which both can learn.

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[billvon 3,107]

>What are you talking here sir? Say less than what, 2% maybe?

About 3% for highway spending. ($27 billion.) A few others:

$366 billion in tax cuts and tax incentives
$39 billion for clean energy projects
$88 billion for education

That's over half the bill, right there. Do you really object to all those tax cuts?

[quade 4]

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i dunno...i was a lil kid. were the groceries only for staving people who were dying?
wtf the matter with you?

I simply don't want to buy your groceries. Is that fair?
thank you.

Except from a stimulus perspective, you're being extremely short sighted.

Giving money to the lower class is like turbo charging the economy in that virtually every dollar given is spent in some way; this includes food stamps and other forms of "welfare." The companies that create the products sell them and their employees get to stay employed.

Giving a tax break to upper income people generally means, they'll save the money in some way. This -may- mean investment money is freed up but it's not a guarantee.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[loumeinhart 0]

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Giving money to the lower class is like turbo charging the economy in that virtually every dollar given is spent in some way;

Um, I spend money too. Why should I give it to someone else to spend

I'd rather they have a job and spend their own money,

[rushmc 23]

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>What are you talking here sir? Say less than what, 2% maybe?

About 3% for highway spending. ($27 billion.) A few others:

$366 billion in tax cuts and tax incentives
$39 billion for clean energy projects
$88 billion for education

That's over half the bill, right there. Do you really object to all those tax cuts?

Devils in the detail, You got detail I will answer. The those tax cuts have are basicly redistribution of monies? Well ya, I do object

But where is your the economy will recover one way ot the other speak?

If it will recover anyway, why go into more debt?

I will wait for your answer.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 3,107]

>Um, I spend money too. Why should I give it to someone else to spend.

Because it will make the economy recover more quickly. If that's not that important to you, then there's less reason to do so.

[billvon 3,107]

>The those tax cuts have are basicly redistribution of monies? Well ya, I do object

OK, RushMC objects to tax cuts. Check.

>But where is your the economy will recover one way ot the other speak?

?? It will recover one way or the other. It will recover faster with economic stimulus. Overall, I don't think it's worth the cost though.

[rushmc 23]

It is becoming more clear you support big government socialistic type programs.

So much for freedoms.

Take it from those who work. Give it to those who dont and get yourself elected for decades to come.

Thank you for making your position easy to see

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 3,107]

>It is becoming more clear you support big government socialistic type programs.

It is becoming quite clear that you usually do not read the previous post before you hit the "POST REPLY" button!

I'm not the one objecting to tax cuts, my tax-n-spend friend.

[Coreece 190]

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I simply don't want to buy your groceries. Is that fair?

You won't need too! But tell you parents thanks for helping out a young mother with a couple days worth of groceries during the rough times of the early 80's....her son has never forgotten.

Also, tell them I'm sorry their positive influence didn't rub off on their children....I understand.

I'll still try and help you if you need it though...opportunity is decreasing these days you know...

just send me a pm when you're ready...it's ok, we're here to help.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[rushmc 23]

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>It is becoming more clear you support big government socialistic type programs.

It is becoming quite clear that you usually do not read the previous post before you hit the "POST REPLY" button!

I'm not the one objecting to tax cuts, my tax-n-spend friend.

Angain you twist as you know very well I do not opject to tax cuts.

What you support is anything but.

Government mandated prices given to privat wind generators
Give "tax refunds" to those who do not pay taxes

are just a couple of examples that show your big gov socialistic views very clearly.


Spend money, transfer more power to government, buy votes are what you want.

I am just glad you are being honest

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[loumeinhart 0]

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Because it will make the economy recover more quickly. If that's not that important to you, then there's less reason to do so.

How? (I'm over-simplifying this) but the difference is.. I spend $3 at the foodmart or I give my neighbor $3 to spend at the foodmart.

Billvon, I have a skill that allows me to create wealth. Not much, but I spend slightly less than I earn, thus creating wealth. If my neighbor chooses to not compete wirh me in this system that's his choice. The economy doesn't care if a dollar spent comes from me or him.

edit:
can't speak about Minnesota because there's a lot I don't know about that event/subject.

[billvon 3,107]

I think you need to turn down Limbaugh for a few hours, have a drink and relax!