faith-based initiatives office

[happythoughts 0]

Faith-Based Initiatives program

Quote

During his presidential campaign, Obama said he wanted to expand White House faith-based efforts begun under Bush. But while he endorsed Bush's initiative to give religious groups more access to federal funding, he also promised to make some changes to the office.

Obama's advisers want to be certain tax dollars sent to the faith-based social service groups are used for secular purposes, such as feeding the hungry or housing the homeless, and not for religious evangelism.

A few years ago, one of the security issues in large
public housing problems was solved by hiring a
Muslim group to do the security.

Muslims, in the US, are against the use of drugs and
would run the dealers out of the projects. That reduced
the associated crime and violence.

I don't know if that is still being done, but it seemed
to work at the time.

[quade 4]

So, you think it's a "good idea" that a security force is operated by its religious beliefs?

Wow. I really don't. Especially if their beliefs don't agree with mine.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

So, you think it's a "good idea" that a security force is operated by its religious beliefs?

That's not what he said. Hiring staff who have extra motivation to enforce rules that are set by another organization is just smart hiring.

If I have a building filled with Singalese, I don't think it would be overly smart to hire a Tamil property manager....

[quade 4]

Quote

Quote

So, you think it's a "good idea" that a security force is operated by its religious beliefs?

That's not what he said. Hiring staff who have extra motivation to enforce rules that are set by another organization is just smart hiring.

If I have a building filled with Singalese, I don't think it would be overly smart to hire a Tamil property manager....

And yet that is exactly the type situation advocated by the article. I think it's asking for trouble. Like it or not, drugs are going to be a part of any public housing, even if it's against the rules. Hiring people that may enforce that rule based on their religious beliefs is just not a good idea. Security should be impartial in their enforcement of rules and not have a built in bias.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[happythoughts 0]

Quote

So, you think it's a "good idea" that a security force is operated by its religious beliefs?

Wow. I really don't. Especially if their beliefs don't agree with mine.

I did not write that.

The security force was hired because of the common
goals. Reduction of crime, drugs, and violence.

Second, they were effective. Possibly, their tactics
differed from the law enforcement community.
They were constantly present and had more community support. (Police go home and the criminals return for retribution.)

Third, motivation. The Muslims lived in the housing projects.
They had a vested interest in the protection of the
community which included their families and friends.

Their motivation to accomplish those goals was
provided by their religion. That is not an issue.
If the Christian community wishes to provide the
same service, they can too.
(Perhaps the non-Muslims should examine their
level of committment to their beliefs.)

Edited to add:

Quote

Especially if their beliefs don't agree with mine.

Personally, I do not support their religion, or any type
of religion, mysticism, spirit-invisible beings.
So, I don't agree with your religion either.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

Security should be impartial in their enforcement of rules and not have a built in bias.

So, where is the bias in this scenario?

[quade 4]

Quote

Quote

Security should be impartial in their enforcement of rules and not have a built in bias.

So, where is the bias in this scenario?

In the part of the thread we're talking about, it would be that they're Muslims that are against drug use. Pretty simple really.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[happythoughts 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Security should be impartial in their enforcement of rules and not have a built in bias.

So, where is the bias in this scenario?

In the part of the thread we're talking about, it would be that they're Muslims that are against drug use. Pretty simple really.

The Catholics would be fighting drug use, but they
are busy putting gold plate on another gargoyle at
the Vatican this week.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

In the part of the thread we're talking about, it would be that they're Muslims that are against drug use. Pretty simple really.

But you can only call that a bias if they had a hadn in setting the rules. Or, if you claim that they neglected other parts of their duties to focus on drug crime because of their religious beliefs.

Neither are part of this thread, so there still isn't a bias. Just an extra motivation to do a job well.

[quade 4]

Quote

Neither are part of this thread, so there still isn't a bias. Just an extra motivation to do a job well.

Uh . . . .

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[SkyDekker 1,465]

I'll spell it out in simpler terms for you:

the word "bias" is generally used to describe a negative. What exactly is negative about stopping people from dealing drugs?

[quade 4]

Because the word bias doesn't mean "negative" it means predisposed to a certain point of view.

Security of any type should not be biased. They should simply enforce the rules without any value judgements. While this may be an idealist and impossible goal to achieve, the attempt should at least be made and in this case it appears that in fact the exact opposite was done.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[happythoughts 0]

Quote

Because the word bias doesn't mean "negative" it means predisposed to a certain point of view.

Security of any type should not be biased. They should simply enforce the rules without any value judgements. While this may be an idealist and impossible goal to achieve, the attempt should at least be made and in this case it appears that in fact the exact opposite was done.

Ok, just so others don't have to guess.
How are the Muslims going to go about their duties
in any different fashion?

I am trying to discover the difference here.

They can always coerce them into a religious
conversion in prison later.

[happythoughts 0]

Maybe we are not looking at the positives on this.

Right now, the post office is trying to reduce their
number of delivery days to cut costs.

How about this...

On the Saturday deliveries, just give the mail to
Jehovah Witnesses. The mail will be delivered
by 8:15 with some bonus literature.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

Because the word bias doesn't mean "negative" it means predisposed to a certain point of view

I didn't say it means negative, I said that it is generally used in the pejorative.

[Coreece 190]

Quote

Security of any type should not be biased.

Well I usually want my security gaurds to hate the crime they're protecting against, but at the same time I don't want a bunch of vigilante's running around...

However, I'm ok with a lone vigilante...like batman, or the unbreakable...

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[happythoughts 0]

Quote

Quote

Because the word bias doesn't mean "negative" it means predisposed to a certain point of view

I didn't say it means negative, I said that it is generally used in the pejorative.

I still haven't figured out how a Muslim security guard is
going to be biased.

What would they do differently than a retired Irish Catholic policeman?

If someone goes to AA meetings, the "higher power" stuff
is part of the package.

If a Muslim security guard approaches someone, then what do they do differently?

[SkyDekker 1,465]

I don't either.....that's why I asked him to explain himself further. So far he has been unable to do so. Just says it is pretty simple.

Paul, if it is so simple, maybe you can explain it in very simple terms to us?

[Coreece 190]

I thought these were some pretty notable quotes from the article:

Quote

Addressing the gathering of lawmakers, dignitaries and world leaders, Obama spoke of how faith has often been a divisive tool, responsible for war and prejudice. But, he said, "there is no religion whose central tenet is hate."

"There is no god who condones taking the life of an innocent human being," he said, and all religions teach people to love and care for one another. That is the common ground underlying the faith-based office"

"In a world that grows smaller by the day, perhaps we can begin to crowd out the destructive forces of zealotry and make room for the healing power of understanding," he said. "This is my hope. This is my prayer."

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[quade 4]

Quote

If someone goes to AA meetings, the "higher power" stuff
is part of the package.

Which is why I'd throw a pretty big hissy fit if a Judge or anyone ever forced me to go to one. Fortunately for me, that's a near impossibility anyway, but I have heard of it being done to others.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[quade 4]

Quote

I don't either.....that's why I asked him to explain himself further. So far he has been unable to do so. Just says it is pretty simple.

Paul, if it is so simple, maybe you can explain it in very simple terms to us?

Asked and answered. Sorry if it's not something you've been able to grasp.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[happythoughts 0]

I am surprised that the continuation of the Bush program is not
subject to the usual hue and cry, because this seems to not be just
support, but an expansion of the program.

- Giving money to religious organizations.
- Possibly pandering to the Religious Right ?
- Programs ?

A White House office is pretty powerful stuff.
A lot of access to the President that a lobbyist would kill for.

Personally, I am going to wait and see how this unfolds.
I am interested to see what programs are actually funded.

Obama worked with a lot of programs in Chicago to aid the poor.
I would suspect that is the initial direction.

[quade 4]

Quote

I am surprised that the continuation of the Bush program is not subject to the usual hue and cry, because this seems to not be just support, but an expansion of the program.

Depends on who you're talking to. I didn't like faith-based initiatives under Bush and I don't like them under Obama.

Religious institutions in the US are tax free as they are. The government certainly doesn't need to give them more money.

This, from the article in the original post;

Quote

Groups that were critical of the Bush faith-based office — including the American Civil Liberties Union, Americans United for Separation of Church and State, and People For the American Way — issued statements Thursday expressing disappointment in the Obama version. All said that by failing to repeal Bush policies, the White House will allow participating religious groups to continue discrimination in hiring.
The ACLU also charged that the new advisory council amounted to "a president giving his favored clergy a governmental stamp of approval."

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

Quote

I don't either.....that's why I asked him to explain himself further. So far he has been unable to do so. Just says it is pretty simple.

Paul, if it is so simple, maybe you can explain it in very simple terms to us?

Asked and answered. Sorry if it's not something you've been able to grasp.

I am still waiting for the explanaition of what is negative about this.

You are smart enough(or at least I had the impression you were smart enough, I am starting to doubt that now) to know that bias is usually used in pejorative.

So, again, what is so bad about tis situation? Has it inhibited impartial judgement?