funjumper101 15 #1 February 2, 2009 Can anyone provide any examples of positive social change based on conservative political philosophy? Progressive political philosophy has brought about positive social change in the form of women’s suffrage, the end of the miscegenation laws, and the civil rights movement. These are all examples of positive social change that occurred, in SPITE of conservative opposition. None of these issues were popular, or had majority support from voters, at the time. I can’t think of a single positive social change that came about by conservatism. Can you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #2 February 2, 2009 The Falklands are still British...Rejoice!When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #3 February 2, 2009 QuoteCan anyone provide any examples of positive social change based on conservative political philosophy? Can you define conservative political philosophy? After all, I define conservative political philosophy in terms of maintaining size (small), scope (limited), and spending (limited) of politicians (and thus the government). QuoteProgressive political philosophy has brought about positive social change in the form of women’s suffrage, the end of the miscegenation laws, and the civil rights movement. These are all examples of positive social change that occurred, in SPITE of conservative opposition. None of these issues were popular, or had majority support from voters, at the time. What about all the negative social change that occurred? QuoteI can’t think of a single positive social change that came about by conservatism. Can you? I didn't realize it was the politicians (and thus the governments) role to promote social change. I thought it was societies role ..."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #4 February 2, 2009 QuoteCan you define conservative political philosophy? After all, I define conservative political philosophy in terms of maintaining size (small), scope (limited), and spending (limited) of politicians (and thus the government). SOOOO basically you are saying there has been NO ACTUAL conservative actions in the last 60 yearrs under ANY GOP Administration.. they lie about all your core values..... ALL OF THEM... but the rePUBICan voters STILL always vote for them... Now that right there is GOAT FUCK STUPID..... They have grown the government in scope aqnd size every administration.... have outspent the Democrats all while increasing the deficits... over and over and over.... Past performance is indicative of further furture performance. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #5 February 2, 2009 I guess one positive example of postive social change by a Conservative philosophy would be the role that Mayor Giuliani's get-tough approach to crime helped to improve New York City. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #6 February 2, 2009 Quote I can’t think of a single positive social change that came about by conservatism. Can you? Well, that's a nearly a given by definition, no? OTOH, while much change is made in response to strife, others emerge when stability gives us time to evolve. A lot of civil rights progress came in the time between the Korean and Vietnam wars. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #7 February 2, 2009 QuoteI guess one positive example of postive social change by a Conservative philosophy would be the role that Mayor Giuliani's get-tough approach to crime helped to improve New York City. Maybe, but that's probably an exception to the rule. Let's project that out on a national level. What positive social changes did tough-guy-style Attorneys General like John Mitchell (Nixon), Edwin Meese (Reagan) or John Ashcroft (Bush-2) help bring about? Anyone? Beuller? When Mayor Richard Daley, Sr. tried to be a tough SOB in Chicago in the 60's, it was a social disaster. Same for Mayor Frank Rizzo in Philadelphia in the 70's. Same for Gov. Nelson Rockefeller's "tough drug laws" in NY state in the 70's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #8 February 2, 2009 QuoteQuoteCan you define conservative political philosophy? After all, I define conservative political philosophy in terms of maintaining size (small), scope (limited), and spending (limited) of politicians (and thus the government). SOOOO basically you are saying there has been NO ACTUAL conservative actions in the last 60 yearrs under ANY GOP Administration.. they lie about all your core values..... ALL OF THEM... but the rePUBICan voters STILL always vote for them... Now that right there is GOAT FUCK STUPID..... They have grown the government in scope aqnd size every administration.... have outspent the Democrats all while increasing the deficits... over and over and over.... Past performance is indicative of further furture performance. I know you struggle with your reading and comprehension skills because I've said it before and I'll say it again ... I'M NOT A REPUBLICAN."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #9 February 2, 2009 I know you struggle with not knowing the difference between rePUBICans and you being a conservative that has no one else you will vote for. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #10 February 2, 2009 QuoteI know you struggle with not knowing the difference between rePUBICans and you being a conservative that has no one else you will vote for. Blah, blah, blah, I've never been a part of the Republican party ... unlike you. PS: Let me help you."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #11 February 2, 2009 QuoteQuoteI guess one positive example of postive social change by a Conservative philosophy would be the role that Mayor Giuliani's get-tough approach to crime helped to improve New York City. Maybe, but that's probably an exception to the rule. Mayor Giuliani also adopted a “broken windows” strategy – aggressive policing of lower-level crimes and fixing broken windows, dilapidated infrastructure, etc - that was very progressive (rather than conservative) along with aggressive arrest of felony crime offenders and enforcement of laws, i.e., “get tough on crime” approach, which is traditionally associated with conservative policies. There were also increases in the minimum wage (10%) that correlated to reduction in robberies (3.4-3.7%) and murders (6.3-6.9%). Minimum wage increase is a progressive policy. *All* three aspects (plus other policies, in all liklihood) were important. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #12 February 2, 2009 QuoteQuote I can’t think of a single positive social change that came about by conservatism. Can you? Well, that's a nearly a given by definition, no? It’s kind of tautological, eh? Conservative social policy values slow or no change. Values tradition. If one is comfortable with the status quo that’s okay. If one isn’t, it’s a problem. QuoteOTOH, while much change is made in response to strife, others emerge when stability gives us time to evolve. A lot of civil rights progress came in the time between the Korean and Vietnam wars. So which do you think drives social change more: uncertain times or steady times in which progressive/challenging ideas can foment? And why? /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #13 February 2, 2009 There are many people who cannot argue an actual issue, but will, instead say, "You are a conservative". It is the same baseless argument as, "It's a gender/race/party/affiliation thing". A removal of a liberal program is considered to be a conservative change. During the Clinton administration, liberal programs from the Kennedy administration were removed. A few of the Kennedy policies were abandoned quickly by Johnson. Policies may be proposed by a party, but they have to be approved by the legislative branch - that has both parties. The best evaluation of policies is the effectiveness. Sociologists noted that 80% of the repeat felony crime is done by 20% of the criminals. In 1998, Gov Jeb Bush proposed the 10-20-Life law. 10 years - crime with a gun. 20 - gun is discharged. 25-life - injury. Result? In 6 years, population went up 15%, but crime went down 30%. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funjumper101 15 #14 February 2, 2009 QuoteQuoteCan anyone provide any examples of positive social change based on conservative political philosophy? Can you define conservative political philosophy? After all, I define conservative political philosophy in terms of maintaining size (small), scope (limited), and spending (limited) of politicians (and thus the government). QuoteProgressive political philosophy has brought about positive social change in the form of women’s suffrage, the end of the miscegenation laws, and the civil rights movement. These are all examples of positive social change that occurred, in SPITE of conservative opposition. None of these issues were popular, or had majority support from voters, at the time. What about all the negative social change that occurred? QuoteI can’t think of a single positive social change that came about by conservatism. Can you? I didn't realize it was the politicians (and thus the governments) role to promote social change. I thought it was societies role ... Can you describe for me what you perceive as "negative social change" that has come about via progressive political philosophy? You appear to be confusing progressive philosophy with politicians and their actions. For many of the positive social changes that have occured, it has been the courts that have forced the issue. Progress came about because the law was used to expand rights and privleges, often against the "will of the people", IE, popular vote. Once the courts ruled, enforcement was the next step. It took the "Freedom Riders" to crack the Jim Crow laws, in the south. The conservatives fought tooth, nail, and firebomb, to stop this from happenning. Conservatives at their finest. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #15 February 2, 2009 Quack quack quack When it sounds like a "conservative" rePUBICan.... and posts like a "conservative" rePUBICan..... I guess it must really be a duck with a watermelon up its ass...I think its time for some more "conservatives" to get a couple new and different prescription providers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #16 February 2, 2009 QuoteCan you describe for me what you perceive as "negative social change" that has come about via progressive political philosophy? The Holocaust. QuoteYou appear to be confusing progressive philosophy with politicians and their actions. No, you asked about conservative political philosophy and progressive political philosophy. QuoteFor many of the positive social changes that have occured, it has been the courts that have forced the issue. Progress came about because the law was used to expand rights and privleges, often against the "will of the people", IE, popular vote. Once the courts ruled, enforcement was the next step. It took the "Freedom Riders" to crack the Jim Crow laws, in the south. The conservatives fought tooth, nail, and firebomb, to stop this from happenning. Conservatives at their finest. Quote“The radical of one century is the conservative of the next.” Mark Twain"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #17 February 2, 2009 You can try to "out-Amazon" jean, but I don't think you have the stamina. You might try "out-Luckying" Lucky. That would be cool. yay - team ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,119 #18 February 2, 2009 >The Holocaust. In general, removal of rights from a group of people based on race, sex, sexual orientation, religion etc. has been characteristic of the conservative movement here in the US. This is not because conservatives oppose such rights, but rather because they favor a more conservative, traditional set of societal norms, and often these norms include things like historical prohibition of interracial or same-sex marriage, restrictions on the rights of minorities and restrictions on women's rights. >“The radical of one century is the conservative of the next.” Mark Twain Very true. Go back to the 1960's; the radicals were the ones advocating for equal rights for women and minorities. Now conservatives have embraced those mores. Today the radicals are the ones advocating equal rights for gays. In another 40 years, conservatives will accept gay rights as easily as they accept rights for blacks, women etc today. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #19 February 2, 2009 Quote>The Holocaust. In general, removal of rights from a group of people based on race, sex, sexual orientation, religion etc. has been characteristic of the conservative movement here in the US. This is not because conservatives oppose such rights, but rather because they favor a more conservative, traditional set of societal norms, and often these norms include things like historical prohibition of interracial or same-sex marriage, restrictions on the rights of minorities and restrictions on women's rights. Rather than the Holocaust ... or perhaps as more recent example, I would suggest the rise of Taliban as an example of negative social change. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #20 February 2, 2009 Quote The best evaluation of policies is the effectiveness. Or the most misleading. Quote Sociologists noted that 80% of the repeat felony crime is done by 20% of the criminals. In 1998, Gov Jeb Bush proposed the 10-20-Life law. 10 years - crime with a gun. 20 - gun is discharged. 25-life - injury. Result? In 6 years, population went up 15%, but crime went down 30%. well, you have a result, but not necessarily a cause. This timeframe generally showed crime decrease throughout America, and a common theme is that the population cohort of young men, those most likely to commit crimes, was in decline during this period. And now, it's on the rise again, and so is crime. Not to say that the NRA supported approach of convicting for gun use and firing isn't a valid manner of dealing with criminals, but measuring its success is a bit harder. Social science has a challenge in controlling for variables. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #21 February 2, 2009 QuoteQuoteOTOH, while much change is made in response to strife, others emerge when stability gives us time to evolve. A lot of civil rights progress came in the time between the Korean and Vietnam wars. So which do you think drives social change more: uncertain times or steady times in which progressive/challenging ideas can foment? And why? /Marg I think as a rule, humans are reactive. When things are going smoothly, there is less drive to make changes and less support from others to support it if there is a cost. But outstanding issues from the past have opportunity in such times to get promoted. Unions generally have more chance for success with strikes/negotiation during good times than bad. Management has more room to work with, and it's probably in the union's interest to endure during the down times. I also wonder if this question can be viewed differently with different time frames. A long running stable, conservative society has more potential for growth/evolution than one that is in a constant state of chaos. Developing nations remain that way for a long time - there isn't enough stability for changes to take hold. It's a social roller coaster. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,119 #22 February 2, 2009 > A long running stable, conservative society has more potential for >growth/evolution than one that is in a constant state of chaos. Any society needs both a conservative element (to avoid too-rapid change) and a progressive element (to avoid stagnation.) Too much of either one is bad. > Developing nations remain that way for a long time - there isn't enough stability > for changes to take hold. It's a social roller coaster. ?? The Enlightenment in Europe and the US in the 19th and 20th centuries are both examples of progressive societies that developed rapidly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #23 February 2, 2009 QuoteSOOOO basically you are saying there has been NO ACTUAL conservative actions in the last 60 yearrs under ANY GOP Administration.. they lie about all your core values..... ALL OF THEM... but the rePUBICan voters STILL always vote for them... "Conservative" usually means support of the status quo or prior to status quo. "Conservative" in some senses can also mean "liberal" in other senses. For example, I'm liberal with regard to my economic beliefs. Thus, "conservative political philosophy" with regard to "economic politics" means that my group harkens a change from the government teat and a focus on individual reliance, which is a "positive" change from the Great Society and FDR progressives. So, when the 1986 Tax Reform Act passed, it was founded upon conservative ideals based upon liberal economic ideas and resulted in closure of tax loopholes while lowering marginal taxes in an effort to increase private investment in the economy. I'd call that a "conservative" policy change that was positive. How about other "conservative" ideals? Like a balanced budget (which is the antithesis of Keyseian Communism). Sure, the Dems and GOP both agreed on it - a triumph of conservative political ideals that lasted all of a couple fo years. Even though it wasn't REALLY balanced. Perhaps we can look at union busting. A conservative political philosophy with a positive social change. Union membership and power has been dropping consistently while real wealth of Americans has increased. And money diverted into the unions has plummeted. How about social change brought about by the conservative resistance to communism. Indeed, I'll throw it back at you: Isn't "progressive" merely a response to "progress?" Can we not blame "progressives" for the ecological distaster that progressives claim we need to change? Had there been no "progress" then there would be no "progressives" to rail against the "progess" that they themselves has brought about. "Progressives" brought about laws that prohibited working 10 year old kids to death in coal mines. Of course, it was a "progressive" idea to use coal, and even to find apt physical specimens to toil in those mines. That's progress, too. That's why I find such subjective definition heelarious. They can be spun so many ways... My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,589 #24 February 2, 2009 Great post. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #25 February 3, 2009 Quote > Developing nations remain that way for a long time - there isn't enough stability > for changes to take hold. It's a social roller coaster. ?? The Enlightenment in Europe and the US in the 19th and 20th centuries are both examples of progressive societies that developed rapidly. Neither would fall into the category of "developing nations." I'm thinking about Latin America and Africa in particular. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
