The British army suffers from lack of soldiers, lack of money and lack of conviction

[vortexring 0]

Here's a good article from The Economist titled 'Britain's armed forces: Losing their way?'

Edit: Here's a comment left by an Economist reader:

'The reality is that the Labour government has treated the Armed Forces very cynically, firstly with Tony Blair using it to grandstand on the world stage and pursue his own place in history (driven by his deluded religious convictions) and now by Gordon Brown - who as Chancellor could barely conceal his contempt for our forces and who would like nothing more than to see them broken and humiliated on a foreign field.

Labour, a party of effete self-congratulatory urban hypocrites has a deep rooted hatred of the Armed Forces that stems from their deeply ingrained class consciousness and their (misplaced) perception of the forces as institutions preserving older orders and attitudes.

The next (Conservative) government must urgently find a way to both achieve the military components of current overseas missions and to also rest, reconstitute and rebuild the Armed Forces, institutions that the vast majority of the British people hold in the highest esteem, value dearly and rightly recognise their immense importance to our nation and its security.

The price of peace is eternal vigilance and this warrior nation must never let hard won lessons of history be forgotten. He who wishes peace must prepare for war and that means we must always be prepared to commit significant proportions of GDP to defence. This will require a substantial increase in spending during the next decade if we our to repair the damage done by a deeply cynical and dishonest Labour government.'

And another from a squaddie:

'I think it's a decent article. Years of over commitment, under funding and poor defence reviews have taken their toll. A certain retired CGS who had a face lift and the Labour government are certainly at fault; the CGS for not standing his ground when it came to defence cuts and the Labour government for slowly chipping away at our resources and commiting forces with scant regard to sustainability. If a major indicent other than Telic had kicked off in early 2003 we would have been screwed. When the Conservatives get in they need to remedy the situation immediately. Increase funding for starters. They need to take a leaf out of the Americans book when it comes to supporting the troops and making the Armed Forces a great career option because of the benefits that come with it. I was speaking to an American last night and he said that because he was wounded in action (and thus awarded the Purple Heart) in most of the major states his children will go to university for free! Then you have the GI Bill for education. No tax on ops.'


A hard hitting article, bringing up issues worthy of discussion! (hopefully)

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[mnealtx 0]

The Last of the Light Brigade

There were thirty million English who talked of England's might,
There were twenty broken troopers who lacked a bed for the night.
They had neither food nor money, they had neither service nor trade;
They were only shiftless soldiers, the last of the Light Brigade.

They felt that life was fleeting; they knew not that art was long,
That though they were dying of famine, they lived in deathless song.
They asked for a little money to keep the wolf from the door;
And the thirty million English sent twenty pounds and four !

They laid their heads together that were scarred and lined and grey;
Keen were the Russian sabres, but want was keener than they;
And an old Troop-Sergeant muttered, "Let us go to the man who writes
The things on Balaclava the kiddies at school recites."

They went without bands or colours, a regiment ten-file strong,
To look for the Master-singer who had crowned them all in his song;
And, waiting his servant's order, by the garden gate they stayed,
A desolate little cluster, the last of the Light Brigade.

They strove to stand to attention, to straighen the toil-bowed back;
They drilled on an empty stomach, the loose-knit files fell slack;
With stooping of weary shoulders, in garments tattered and frayed,
They shambled into his presence, the last of the Light Brigade.

The old Troop-Sergeant was spokesman, and "Beggin' your pardon," he said,
"You wrote o' the Light Brigade, sir. Here's all that isn't dead.
An' it's all come true what you wrote, sir, regardin' the mouth of hell;
For we're all of us nigh to the workhouse, an' we thought we'd call an' tell.

"No, thank you, we don't want food, sir; but couldn't you take an' write
A sort of 'to be continued' and 'see next page' o' the fight?
We think that someone has blundered, an' couldn't you tell 'em how?
You wrote we were heroes once, sir. Please, write we are starving now."

The poor little army departed, limping and lean and forlorn.
And the heart of the Master-singer grew hot with "the scorn of scorn."
And he wrote for them wonderful verses that swept the land like flame,
Till the fatted souls of the English were scourged with the thing called Shame.

O thirty million English that babble of England's might,
Behold there are twenty heroes who lack their food to-night;
Our children's children are lisping to "honour the charge they made - "
And we leave to the streets and the workhouse the charge of the Light Brigade!

-Rudyard Kipling

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Amazon 7]

I prefer this one by old Rudy

Boots
INFANTRY COLUMNS

We're foot—slog—slog—slog—sloggin' over Africa —
Foot—foot—foot—foot—sloggin' over Africa —
(Boots—boots—boots—boots—movin' up an' down again!)
There's no discharge in the war!

Seven—six—eleven—five—nine-an'-twenty mile to-day —
Four—eleven—seventeen—thirty-two the day before —
(Boots—boots—boots—boots—movin' up an' down again!)
There's no discharge in the war!

Don't—don't—don't—don't—look at what's in front of you.
(Boots—boots—boots—boots—movin' up an' down again);
Men—men—men—men—men go mad with watchin' em,
An' there's no discharge in the war!

Try—try—try—try—to think o' something different —
Oh—my—God—keep—me from goin' lunatic!
(Boots—boots—boots—boots—movin' up an' down again!)
There's no discharge in the war!

Count—count—count—count—the bullets in the bandoliers.
If—your—eyes—drop—they will get atop o' you!
(Boots—boots—boots—boots—movin' up an' down again) —
There's no discharge in the war!

We—can—stick—out—'unger, thirst, an' weariness,
But—not—not—not—not the chronic sight of 'em —
Boot—boots—boots—boots—movin' up an' down again,
An' there's no discharge in the war!

'Taint—so—bad—by—day because o' company,
But night—brings—long—strings—o' forty thousand million
Boots—boots—boots—boots—movin' up an' down again.
There's no discharge in the war!

I—'ave—marched—six—weeks in 'Ell an' certify
It—is—not—fire—devils, dark, or anything,
But boots—boots—boots—boots—movin' up an' down again,
An' there's no discharge in the war!

[Belgian_Draft 0]

They just need to reinstate the daily ration of grog.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[vortexring 0]

That poem made me think of 'Tommy Atkins' - one of my favourites, mainly because of some updated and more apt verses I came across (in bold) to be added to the original:


I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!


I went into a gastro pub to get meself a meal,
This pay as you dine you see it ain't no real good deal.
The quality is pretty pish, and quantities are dire,
Whoever got rid of t'Catering Corps, has left us in the mire:

O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy is well paid";
But nobodies getting shot at Westminster, they're just getting laid-
There ain't no band begins to play, my boys, which means we have less medics,
And boys get harmed in Snatches and still there are few credits.

I were sent into a war as lairy as could be,
Wi' no proper role or kit, and nobody backing me;
They sent me to Afghanistan or into South Iraq,
But there weren't ever near enough of us, to get 'em back on track!!

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy get on wi? it";
But there's "No more money in the pot," when the fan is hit by s***-
The fan is hit by s***, my boys, the fan is hit by s***,
It's "Carry on and do your best?, when the fan is hit by s***.

Those lads that you depend on, and fund them on the cheap,
You treat 'em all like s*** and bugger the mission creep;
Don't worry that they live in slums, and will do yet for years,
Why should we treat 'em any different, why care about their fears,

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy 'ow's yer life?"
Well life is crap he says, according to the wife-
Life is crap he says, she's gone home to mum, I've said goodbye t'wife ,
O life it's crap he says, when JPA fucks up your life.

No one likes us, what do you care, when we're back in camp,
Trying to * your daughters, drinking, and swinging on a lamp;
But we save your arse so many times, and do your dirty deeds,
But all you do is cut the money, and it's our family that bleeds:

While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy plug that dyke,"
But it's "Please to fill those sandbags, sir," when there's flooding and the like-
And fight those fires, my boys, you cannot go on strike,
Do some other fuckers dirty work, covered in the dung and shite,
When foot and mouth, or other mess becomes the country's plight.

You talk of cuts, reorganisations, savings and the like;
But it's getting to the point where we'll all be on our bike.
Sort out the quarters and the compensation, and prove it to our face,
Give us our own hospital, your treatment of our wounded is an absolute disgrace.

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "the best little Army that there be!"
But the Covenant is nearly busted; Labour's done that to us don't you see?
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' platitudes to appease;
But Tommy, he ain't blind - you bet that Tommy sees!


Unfortunately I don't actually know who wrote these updated versus - I wonder what Kipling would've thought of them?

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[vortexring 0]

Quote

They just need to reinstate the daily ration of grog.

Via a size 10 up the arses of the politicians?

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[mnealtx 0]

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[vortexring 0]

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[Andy9o8 3]

Quote

Gordon Brown - who as Chancellor could barely conceal his contempt for our forces and who would like nothing more than to see them broken and humiliated on a foreign field.

Not to worry - as long as there are plenty of hapless sheep islands in the middle of nowhere to conquer, that's unlikely to happen.

[vortexring 0]

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Quote

Gordon Brown - who as Chancellor could barely conceal his contempt for our forces and who would like nothing more than to see them broken and humiliated on a foreign field.

Not to worry - as long as there are plenty of hapless sheep islands in the middle of nowhere to conquer, that's unlikely to happen.

If you still think we've the capability of conquering hapless sheep islands in the middle of nowhere. . .

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[Andy9o8 3]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Gordon Brown - who as Chancellor could barely conceal his contempt for our forces and who would like nothing more than to see them broken and humiliated on a foreign field.

Not to worry - as long as there are plenty of hapless sheep islands in the middle of nowhere to conquer, that's unlikely to happen.

If you still think we've the capability of conquering hapless sheep islands in the middle of nowhere. . .

Well, the attraction is clearly the sheep. And boys will be boys...

[vortexring 0]

Sure, tell that to the families of the 258 killed in the conflict, to the families of the 264 veterans who later committed suicide.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[Andy9o8 3]

Quote

Sure, tell that to the families of the 258 killed in the conflict, to the families of the 264 veterans who later committed suicide.

Just for the sake of historical completeness, there were also 649 Argentines killed and have been 454 suicides among the Argentine veterans. A total of 1,625 human lives, and counting.

And before you fob all of this on your country's Left, the British government under Thatcher was faulted for initially being taken by surprise by the Argentine incursion due to deficiencies in Bristish intelligence, among other things, as well as the MOD's systematic failure to prepare its service personnel for the horrors of war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falklands_war

[nerdgirl 0]

Interesting article. Thanks for the metaphorical ‘hat-tip.’ I thought it spoke more to differences in strategic and policy decisions and military-political processes between the US and UK than a question of British troops. It was almost like a bait-n-switch with a semi-sensationalistic title that The Economist gave it to be followed by a topical analysis that was less sensationalistic, which is not dismiss real issues that may/do exist within UK's armed forces. The article gets at much more than that, imo.

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[vortexring 0]

Quote

Quote

Sure, tell that to the families of the 258 killed in the conflict, to the families of the 264 veterans who later committed suicide.

Just for the sake of historical completeness, there were also 649 Argentines killed and have been 454 suicides among the Argentine veterans. A total of 1,625 human lives, and counting.

Which then makes your flippant statements even worse, although I'm sure they were simply an attempt at humour. Just a bit too disrespectful for me.

Quote

And before you fob all of this on your country's Left, the British government under Thatcher was faulted for initially being taken by surprise by the Argentine incursion due to deficiencies in Bristish intelligence, among other things, as well as the MOD's systematic failure to prepare its service personnel for the horrors of war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falklands_war

WTF are you blethering about now Andy809? Don't you think I'm aware which political party was in power in 1982?

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[fossg 0]

HUA

[vortexring 0]

Quote

I thought it spoke more to differences in strategic and policy decisions and military-political processes between the US and UK than a question of British troops.

Completely agree Marg, although the article deals with the effect on the Army of a political environment which has caused all the issues it mentions. Rather than question the Soldiers and Generals, it should be blasting B'Liar, whose cynical exploitation of the resources available for his own glorification has caused the situation.

Quote

It was almost like a bait-n-switch with a semi-sensationalistic title that The Economist gave it to be followed by a topical analysis that was less sensationalistic, which is not dismiss real issues that may/do exist within UK's armed forces. The article gets at much more than that, imo.

Hence the reason for sticking it up. In almost every paragraph of that article there are statements worthy of recognition and action. Whilst I may disagree with some, such as: "The British army is like an engine running without oil. It is still going, but it could seize up at any moment” it still brings to attention a serious issue within the army - one that can be no longer brushed under the carpet.

Another was a statement alluding to 'a Generals' opinion that the Americans are at war, whilst we're on operations. That resonates; when you consider conviction; when you consider the number of British servicemen and women questioning the strategic objectives and reasons for why they're in Afghanistan in the first place.

The article brings to attention the Governments chronic under-investment in their armed forces whilst also questioning our policies with America; not just what we might want, but what we might only be capable of.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[Andy9o8 3]

You need to lighten up, Louise.

[Skyrad 0]

Fuck the Argies. Their government decided to invade British territory and got a bloody nose for thier troubles. We are in Afghanistan to support the USA after the terrorist attacks on 9/11 seeing as the US government saw fit to bugger off and prosecute G W Bush's war on Iraq rather than go after the alleged masterminds of 9/11. So excuse me if I don't cry for Argentina.

P.S Fuck the Belgrano too.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[vortexring 0]

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You need to lighten up, Louise.

Oh fucking really.

Why's that?

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[shropshire 0]

Quote

Fuck the Argies. Their government decided to invade British territory and got a bloody nose for thier troubles. We are in Afghanistan to support the USA after the terrorist attacks on 9/11 11/9 seeing as the US government saw fit to bugger off and prosecute G W Bushs war on Iraq rather than go after the alleged masterminds of 9/11 11/9. So excuse me if I don't cry for Argentina.

P.S Fuck the Belgrano too.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Andy9o8 3]

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Quote

You need to lighten up, Louise.

Oh fucking really.

Why's that?

Bend over and cough.

[Skyrad 0]

Cheers mate, dyslexia is a bitch.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[vortexring 0]

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Quote

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You need to lighten up, Louise.

Oh fucking really.

Why's that?

Bend over and cough.

cough> . . .

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[DanG 1]

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We are in Afghanistan to support the USA after the terrorist attacks on 9/11 seeing as the US government saw fit to bugger off and prosecute G W Bush's war on Iraq rather than go after the alleged masterminds of 9/11

You're in Afghanistan to stop the poppy trade. That's the only thing I saw the Brits caring about when I was over there.

- Dan G