billvon 3,111 #26 January 30, 2009 >Ok, what IYO, causes and/or started the down turn? At a high level? Nothing. Economies are cyclic by nature. At a mid level? The collapse of the mortgage industry (specifically the collapse of the debt instruments used in the mortgage industry) began the downturn by taking out one of the primary "legs" of the latest economic bubble. At a low level? People no longer have faith in the economy, and are thus pulling their money out of the market, not buying new homes etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capt.Slog 0 #27 January 30, 2009 Quote>Ok, what IYO, causes and/or started the down turn? At a high level? Nothing. Economies are cyclic by nature. At a mid level? The collapse of the mortgage industry (specifically the collapse of the debt instruments used in the mortgage industry) began the downturn by taking out one of the primary "legs" of the latest economic bubble. At a low level? People no longer have faith in the economy, and are thus pulling their money out of the market, not buying new homes etc. Greed and gullibility. People WANTED to believe that they could buy a house they couldn't afford, and everything would be fine because the mortage broker said so. People wanted to believe they could buy securitized junk mortgages as investments that would go up in value because the ratings agencies said so. Bankers believed they deserved to become super rich by manipulating others' money (and they are STILL paying themselves huge bonuses despite their bank having to be bailed out by taxpayers). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #28 January 31, 2009 QuoteQuoteThe "Rangel Rule" Childish. I can't hardly believe people CONGRESS are IS focusing on this while there are 10s of thousands of people are losing their jobs every day. Idiots. I can hardly believe they kept him as a nominee, and that the Senate approved him. And I'm in the Obama camp. It's a disgrace. At least 3 Democrats voted on principle rather than party, stating 'if he wasn't nominated, he would never have paid.' Is it silly to make this statement, given it's not a viable solution? I don't think so. It of course would have been better if they rejected him outright. Even if he has the right skills for the task at hand, he sets a terrible example. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zep 0 #29 February 1, 2009 QuoteLiberals love spending other peoples money, hence their love for Socialism. Ding Ding, we have a winner Gone fishing Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #30 February 1, 2009 Quote Liberals love spending other peoples money, hence their love for Socialism. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ding Ding, we have a winner Wow.. it must really suck to live in the bizzarro world you guys live in.. when the reality of who has been in conotrol of the economy during the WAR PRISIDENTS time in office is right there in front of youI know you guys dig that whole FAITH thing... but just because that is what you want to BELIEVE.. does not make it so.. Any of you checked the bottom line recently on WHO THE FUCK WAS SPENDING ALL THE FUCKING MONEY FOR THE EXCELLENT ADVENTURE IN WASHINGTON SINCE 2001????????? Please note... how much spending has done by great liberals like Reagan, Bush1 and Bush2 http://zfacts.com/p/480.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #31 February 1, 2009 Quoteliberal's love taxes This is an issue of the ruling class and underlings, not liberals vs. conservatives. I would love to see this passed, and I am a liberal. The problem is that we (the underlings, both conservative and liberal) don't make the rules. We just all like to pretend we do. In case you're wondering who the ruling class is - it's the Golden Rule, of course - "those who have the gold make the rules".Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capt.Slog 0 #32 February 1, 2009 QuoteQuoteliberal's love taxes This is an issue of the ruling class and underlings, not liberals vs. conservatives. I would love to see this passed, and I am a liberal. The problem is that we (the underlings, both conservative and liberal) don't make the rules. We just all like to pretend we do. In case you're wondering who the ruling class is - it's the Golden Rule, of course - "those who have the gold make the rules". +1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
loumeinhart 0 #33 February 1, 2009 Quotethe reality of who has been in conotrol of the economy during the WAR PRISIDENTS time in office is right there in front of you Right, because they the president controls the economy. Jesus H Christ Amazon, when you pull do you have to remember which arm to use? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
loumeinhart 0 #34 February 1, 2009 QuoteAt a high level? Nothing. Economies are cyclic by nature. At a mid level? The collapse of the mortgage industry (specifically the collapse of the debt instruments used in the mortgage industry) began the downturn by taking out one of the primary "legs" of the latest economic bubble. At a low level? People no longer have faith in the economy, and are thus pulling their money out of the market, not buying new homes etc. Exactly, this is NOTHING NEW. This has been going on for quite some time. The 'economy' is entirely cyclical by nature. People should turn off CNN and read some history. Just my .02 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #35 February 1, 2009 QuoteQuotethe reality of who has been in conotrol of the economy during the WAR PRISIDENTS time in office is right there in front of you Right, because they the president controls the economy. Jesus H Christ Amazon, when you pull do you have to remember which arm to use? When he and his buddies in his Administration have as much power as they did to take us to a bogus war....hand out no bid contracts... to other "friends" and to see the quality of the work of the "contracts".. you tell me where the 5 TRILLION plus in deficits went to?? HMMMMMMMMMMMM And nope its muscle memory when I pull... just as its muscle memory for the Bush Family to do whatever it takes to "prosper" by fucking America ( look up Granddaddy Bush and Nazi's) http://www.georgewalkerbush.net/bush-nazilinkconfirmed.htm And lets not forget the Bush Family ties to the Saudi's.. and Bin Ladens http://www.bushwatch.com/bushmoney.htm To believe the hype.. instead of the facts.... well in some circles.. they call that delusion.. I just call it stupidity. As always.. follow the money.. because its far more important.. than patriotism to your favorite politician. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #36 February 1, 2009 QuoteWhen he and his buddies in his Administration have as much power as they did to take us to a bogus war....hand out no bid contracts... to other "friends" and to see the quality of the work of the "contracts".. you tell me where the 5 TRILLION plus in deficits went to?? The top 10 list of no-bid contractors (FY2000-FY2008): BOEING CO. $77,848,924,763 LOCKHEED MARTIN CORP $61,383,741,040 NORTHROP GRUMMAN CORP. $55,059,205,900 RAYTHEON CO. $40,234,700,521 UNIVERSITY OF CALIF SYSTEM $37,659,703,854 GENERAL DYNAMICS CORP. $32,435,197,673 UNITED TECHNOLOGIES CORP. $27,657,026,158 BAE SYSTEMS $18,873,895,581 CALIFORNIA INST OF TECHNOLOGY $17,970,382,058 GENERAL ELECTRIC COMPANY $15,717,979,101 Hmm... can't see Halliburton anywhere on there... is Boeing supposed to be a "friend" of the Bush administration or something? Nope, doesn't look like it; Boeing's political contributions, 2008 Senate Obama, Barack $167,098 Senate Clinton, Hillary $62,014 Senate Stevens, Ted $35,900 Senate McCain, John $33,899 House Skelton, Ike $32,550 QuoteTo believe the hype.. instead of the facts.... well in some circles.. they call that delusion.. I just call it stupidity. Aww...don't be so hard on your fellow liberals, Jeanne - they're not stupid, just misguided.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #37 February 1, 2009 Quote Quote When he and his buddies in his Administration have as much power as they did to take us to a bogus war....hand out no bid contracts... to other "friends" and to see the quality of the work of the "contracts".. you tell me where the 5 TRILLION plus in deficits went to?? The top 10 list of no-bid contractors (FY2000-FY2008): BOEING CO. $77,848,924,763 LOCKHEED MARTIN CORP $61,383,741,040 NORTHROP GRUMMAN CORP. $55,059,205,900 RAYTHEON CO. $40,234,700,521 UNIVERSITY OF CALIF SYSTEM $37,659,703,854 GENERAL DYNAMICS CORP. $32,435,197,673 UNITED TECHNOLOGIES CORP. $27,657,026,158 BAE SYSTEMS $18,873,895,581 CALIFORNIA INST OF TECHNOLOGY $17,970,382,058 GENERAL ELECTRIC COMPANY $15,717,979,101 Hmm... can't see Halliburton anywhere on there... is Boeing supposed to be a "friend" of the Bush administration or something? Nope, doesn't look like it; Boeing's political contributions, 2008 Senate Obama, Barack $167,098 Senate Clinton, Hillary $62,014 Senate Stevens, Ted $35,900 Senate McCain, John $33,899 House Skelton, Ike $32,550 Quote To believe the hype.. instead of the facts.... well in some circles.. they call that delusion.. I just call it stupidity. Aww...don't be so hard on your fellow liberals, Jeanne - they're not stupid, just misguided. Ah yes... I love how you just HAVE to bring up Boeing etc.. GEE I wonder why that is.. YOU... list those DEFENSE contractors... who WON the contracts for VERY specific weapons systems which means they get to keep making the parts for them until the system is retired.. or they quit making them... Why is it you always try to bring those up.. you are comparing Watermelons to Avocados. You know EXACTLY the abuses made by Halliburton.. Kellog Brown and Root.. Blackwater.. and all the other right wing friends of the Bush Family and the administration that made out like bandits... because GEE that is what they really are.. thieves and con artists.. providing "services" that are overcharged.. or non existent. But you are not honest enough to look at the companies that did that now are you.http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Reconstruction_of_Iraq_contractors Unlike you .... I prefer to point out WAR PROFITEERING by the people you support.... unquestioninglyI support firing them..... and prosecuting them for ripping off the American people..... why don’t you??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #38 February 2, 2009 Quote Ah yes... I love how you just HAVE to bring up Boeing etc.. GEE I wonder why that is.. Because they are the NUMBER ONE RECIPIENT of those no-bid contracts you like to bring up. Quote YOU... list those DEFENSE contractors... who WON the contracts for VERY specific weapons systems which means they get to keep making the parts for them until the system is retired.. or they quit making them... If there's no competition, how can they 'win' the contract, Jeanne? Quote Why is it you always try to bring those up.. you are comparing Watermelons to Avocados. Methinks the lady doth protest overmuch. Quote You know EXACTLY the abuses made by Halliburton.. Kellog Brown and Root.. Blackwater.. and all the other right wing friends of the Bush Family and the administration that made out like bandits... because GEE that is what they really are.. thieves and con artists.. providing "services" that are overcharged.. or non existent. But you are not honest enough to look at the companies that did that now are you. All that 'proof' and yet, no convictions. Quote Unlike you .... I prefer to point out WAR PROFITEERING by the people you support.... unquestioningly No. Unlike me, YOU make accusations with no proof to back it up. Quote I support firing them..... and prosecuting them for ripping off the American people..... why don’t you??? Then support firing ANY/ALL of them, not just the (so-called) "friends of the Bush administration".Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #39 February 2, 2009 Let’s be honest With EVERYONE who reads this MIKE. I have worked for Boeing in the past and you seem to believe that has something you can attack me for, And this is whythere are these little arguments you engage in CLAIMING that there were no bid contracts. SO what company do you work for again?????? It really is too bad that you cannot see that the divisions of Boeing that DID WIN real contracts put out there for bids, for the FA-18, the Apache, and so so many more. Those are facts. Boeing engaged in competitions and they DID WIN the contracts… in LEGAL competitive bidding..... in REAL bidding competitions Your characterizations are DISHONEST at the very best. Once they won those contracts.. they are good for the LIFETIME of that weapons system Boeing gets to decide who they want to build subsystems of that system. They have quality and performance standards to maintain. Why do you always seem to forget that part.. As much as you HATE Boeing et al, it’s a damn good thing that the weapons systems they build on their supposed no bid contracts( in your skewed imagination) do not work like the things Halliburton and Kellogg Brown and Root and Blackwater and all the other friends of the Administration, you know, the buildings built with sub-standard materials... the shoddy construction.. the outright thefts... the repainting of used trucks and resold to other divisions as new, so they could bilk the Treasury of more of OUR money. There is a difference between your companies WAR PROFITEERING... and outright fraud... and Boeings supply of weapons systems that are the mainstay of our military. It really is too bad you support that fraud so vehemently and are incapable of acknowledging the abuses. I have posted site after site after site.. you seem to NEVER seem to acknowldge anything is wrong.. You are right.. I hope that the new Administration goes after ALL of those who have defrauded our country.. no matter WHO the fuck they are. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #40 February 2, 2009 QuoteLet’s be honest With EVERYONE who reads this MIKE. I have worked for Boeing in the past and you seem to believe that has Something you can attack me for, and to do with these little arguments you engage in CLAIMING that there were no bid contracts. SO what company do you work for again?????? I "claim" nothing - the information about the no-bid contract is from government info. As for who I work for, it's *not* KBR or Halliburton as you have tried to claim in the past, since you're mentioning attacking people for where they work. QuoteIt really is too bad that you cannot see that the divisions of Boeing that DID WIN real contracts put out there for bids, for the FA-18, the Apache, and so so many more. Those are facts. Boeing engaged in competitions and they DID WIN the contracts… in LEGAL competitive bidding..... in REAL bidding competitions your characterizations are DISHONEST. As I said - my information came from government contracting sources - where does YOUR 'friend of the administration' info come from, Jeanne? QuoteOnce they won those contracts.. they are good for the LIFETIME of that weapons system Boeing gets to decide who they want to build subsystems of that system. They have quality and performance standards to maintain. Why do you always seem to forget that part.. That's called a follow-on contract, and is different from a no-bid contract. Try again. QuoteAs much as you HATE Boeing et al, it’s a damn good thing that the weapons systems they build on their supposed no bid contracts( in your skewed imagination) do not work like the things Halliburton and Kellogg Brown and Root and Blackwater and all the other friends of the Administration, you know, the buildings built with sub-standard materials... the shoddy construction.. the outright thefts... the repainting of used trucks and resold to other divisions as new, so they could bilk the Treasury of more of OUR money. I don't "HATE Boeing" at all - I merely pointed out the FACT that they have received more no-bid contracts than anyone else. Any emotion connected to that is YOURS, not mine. QuoteThere is a difference between your companies WAR PROFITEERING... What was that about attacking someone for where they work that you were crying about, above? You don't know WHO I work for - I've told you innumerable times now that it is NOT Halliburton, KBR or any of the other 'friends of the administration' companies. Quoteand outright fraud... and Boeings supply of weapons systems that are the mainstay of our military. It really is too bad you support that fraud so vehemently and are incapable of acknowledging the abuses. Prove your cite. SHOW where I have supported fraud by contractors. Oh, wait...this is like the "if you don't slam Bush like I do, you must be a diehard supporter of him" issue that you have, isn't it?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #41 February 2, 2009 http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2006/November/06_civ_797.html http://www.sec.gov/news/press/2008/2008-189.htm http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=2471 But today as much as 10% of the emergency U.S. army operations overseas are contracted out to private companies run by former government and military officials. These private companies operate with no public oversight despite the fact that these contractors work just behind the battle lines. The companies are allowed to make up to nine percent in profit out of these war support efforts. And experience so far has shown that the companies are not above skimming more profits off the top if they can. There are LITERALLY hundreds more Mike.. where is your outcry??? Oh heres another juicy one... NO BID HALLIBURTON. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/08/17/eveningnews/main636644.shtml the Houston-based conglomerate once headed by Vice President Dick Cheney is neck-deep in allegations of waste and fraud involving millions of taxpayer dollars Some of the most compelling accusations come from people like DeYoung, who worked for Halliburton subsidiary KBR. She recently told Congress that while troops rough it in tents, hundreds of preferred Halliburton KBR employees reside in five-star hotels like the Kempinski in Kuwait with fruit baskets and pressed laundry delivered daily. "It costs $110 to house one KBR employee per day at the Kempinski, while it costs the Army $1.39 per day to bunk a soldier in a leased tent," DeYoung said. "The military requested that Halliburton move into tents, but Halliburton refused." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #42 February 2, 2009 QuoteThere are LITERALLY hundreds more Mike.. where is your outcry??? http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/08/AR2006040801450.html http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9407E5DF1238F931A35753C1A96E958260 http://monitoring.environmental-expert.com/resultEachPressRelease.aspx?cid=4797&codi=20221&idproducttype=8&level=0 Where is YOUR outcry over anyone but KBR/Halliburton/Blackwater, Jeanne? You're still not showing where "I excused fraud". BTW, your info is old. Under the original LOGCAP contract, the profit per the contract is 1 percent. Incentive bonuses can be awarded up to 9 percent. The currrent LOGCAP caps incentive bonus at 3 percent. QuoteOh heres another juicy one... NO BID HALLIBURTON. Halliburton worked under LOGCAP from 1992-1997 (Open bid contract). In 1997, KBR lost the re-bid to DynCorp. The Clinton administration then gave KBR a no-bid contract to continue the work. In 1999, the re-bid was won by KBR. The Iraq contracts are an extension of LOGCAP which has been competitively bid since 2001.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LyraM45 0 #43 February 2, 2009 Quote not a chance. liberal's love taxes Are you serious or just taking the piss?? Look back and dig up anything you'd like that supports the argument that repubs make the rich richer and the poor poorer. There have been more tax cuts under a democratic president than republican presidents (for the middle class anyway), I'm pretty sure.Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piahenzi 0 #44 February 2, 2009 Define "middle class"....seems that is becoming as difficult to do as catching smoke... What caused the downturn? 1) economic cycle 2) exacerbated, but not caused, by poor Congressional policy making re mortgage lending and a lack of sufficient oversight ( note that I did not state regulation) on/over Wall Street. 3) low/negative savings rates/increasing household debt that became unsustainable I fear it's going to get a lot worse before it gets better but I personally am not a fan of the bailout packages as they are being "administered". Also not a fan of the current administration "scare tactics" on the American population which only creates more lemmings heading to the trough for financial assistance. It seems to me that we should be concentrating on stepping up the efforts on the housing and financial markets, leaving the companies that cannot survive the current climate to go off into the sunset. Might take longer for recovery on the employment front, but it would be a healthier recovery, and avoid isolationism/protectionism, and should cost less. But much greater minds than mine cannot figure out what needs to be done, so my opinion is just that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #45 February 2, 2009 Asley how much more do you want them to pay? what do you think of as middle class? http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/22652.html New Data: Top 1% Pay Greater Dollar Amount in Income Taxes to Federal Government than Bottom 90% The table above shows that the top-earning 25 percent of taxpayers (AGI over $62,068) earned 67.5 percent of nation's income, but they paid more than four out of every five dollars collected by the federal income tax (86 percent). The top 1 percent of taxpayers (AGI over $364,657) earned approximately 21.2 percent of the nation's income (as defined by AGI), yet paid 39.4 percent of all federal income taxes. That means the top 1 percent of tax returns paid about the same amount of federal individual income taxes as the bottom 95 percent of tax returns. see link for chart. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #46 February 2, 2009 Quote Halliburton worked under LOGCAP from 1992-1997 (Open bid contract). In 1997, KBR lost the re-bid to DynCorp. The Clinton administration then gave KBR a no-bid contract to continue the work. In 1999, the re-bid was won by KBR. The Iraq contracts are an extension of LOGCAP which has been competitively bid since 2001. You are one funny DUDE.,., Mike.. You can only find stuff under Clinton.. come on.. you can be a little more HONEST than that.... OOOPS.. guess not Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #47 February 3, 2009 Quote Quote Halliburton worked under LOGCAP from 1992-1997 (Open bid contract). In 1997, KBR lost the re-bid to DynCorp. The Clinton administration then gave KBR a no-bid contract to continue the work. In 1999, the re-bid was won by KBR. The Iraq contracts are an extension of LOGCAP which has been competitively bid since 2001. You are one funny DUDE.,., Mike.. You can only find stuff under Clinton.. come on.. you can be a little more HONEST than that.... OOOPS.. guess not So prove it. The fact that you think someone can just stick his head in the door of the GAO and say "give the contract to so-n-so" proves you don't know a damn thing about how government contracts are let.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #48 February 3, 2009 QuoteSo prove it. The fact that you think someone can just stick his head in the door of the GAO and say "give the contract to so-n-so" proves you don't know a damn thing about how government contracts are let. And you have proven you dont give a damn about actual performance on the contracts.. Nice that you support unbridled and rampant fraud.. as long as its done by your guys... SWEET.. Just remember this conversation when there are wholesale convictions of your guys in the not too distant future for fraud and war profiteering. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #49 February 3, 2009 QuoteQuoteSo prove it. The fact that you think someone can just stick his head in the door of the GAO and say "give the contract to so-n-so" proves you don't know a damn thing about how government contracts are let. And you have proven you dont give a damn about actual performance on the contracts.. Nice that you support unbridled and rampant fraud.. as long as its done by your guys... SWEET.. Just remember this conversation when there are wholesale convictions of your guys in the not too distant future for fraud and war profiteering. PROVE IT - show my posts saying that.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
