AR build recommendations?

[rushmc 23]

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I'm also wondering about muzzle flash....With too short of a barrel you may have unburned powder.

Flash Hider?

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Both the M-16 and AR-15 have flash suppressors. They may help a little with muzzle flash, but if you have a real short barrel, standard 223 ammo will produce a huge flash because of unburned powder. The powder burns as the bullet travels down the barrel. All the powder should be burned up by the time the bullet leaves the barrel. There's no flash suppressor tht will work on too short of a barrel or the wrong ammo.

Perhaps a 16 inch barrel is too short for standard M-16 ammo. I don't know though. It might shoot okay. I'll bet Lou Diamond knows.

Another example was something really stupid, that I did once, when I was a kid.

I started reloading when I was 12 or 13. My Dad let me do about whatever, I wanted as long as I didn't blow the house up.

A friend and I decided we'd load up some coyote ammo for my trusty 30/06. This was a poor varmit rifle, but it was the only bigger gun I had.

Stupid us...we didn't even have a loading manual. This friend of mine watched a guy load a box of shells once, so he was the brains behind this fiasco.

We bought some 110 grain bullets and a can of 4831 powder. We loaded up a charge that should have been behind a 180 grain bullet.

So, then we drove out in the back 40 to try them out.

Anyone who reloads would know this was way to slow of a burning powder for that bullet. And yes, we had too much powder behind that little bullet.

It was getting a little dark when I finally touched one off. "Holy Christ" There was about three feet of flame that came out of the barrel, and a boom that scared both of us. When I finally got my vision back I noticed little specks of powder, all over the snow.

This is an extreme example of what not to do, but it shows what can happen if all the powder does not burn before the bullet leaves the barrel....

LOL crap man!!!! You owe me a keyboard cause I just spit coffee all over mine

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[LouDiamond 1]

HERE is a video of a very short(8") barreled AR that should give everyone and idea of how it performs. Shorty barrels are louder without question but if you need one, the extra sound isn't an issue.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[mnealtx 0]

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Well since you said you want a piston upper, thats gonna drive it up right off the bat. Figure any where from say $1,200 to 1,500+ for a piston upper depending on who makes it. Start adding other quality parts and it'll easily surpass your $1500.00 diminishing returns mark. If $1500 is your max I would recommend you look at buying a prebuilt one thats as close to the way you want it set up and then spend the rest on any of the things you want to add/change.

Ok... so what are my options without a piston upper, then? I set the 1500 limit as that is roughly what the Sig 556 was selling for back home (actually, it was about 1300, but I rounded up).

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

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Suggestions? Ideas? Parts lists?

I have a suggestion, do all of this without letting the entire world know your intentions. Build the thing covertly. There"s some things a man just has to keep to himself.

Heres one URL that may be of help to you:

http://www.fulton-armory.com/Kaboom.htm

Thanks for the link. Seeing as how the lower requires a 4473, it's not like I can be *that* stealthy about it in regards to fed.gov, y'know?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[LouDiamond 1]

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Well since you said you want a piston upper, thats gonna drive it up right off the bat. Figure any where from say $1,200 to 1,500+ for a piston upper depending on who makes it. Start adding other quality parts and it'll easily surpass your $1500.00 diminishing returns mark. If $1500 is your max I would recommend you look at buying a prebuilt one thats as close to the way you want it set up and then spend the rest on any of the things you want to add/change.

Ok... so what are my options without a piston upper, then? I set the 1500 limit as that is roughly what the Sig 556 was selling for back home (actually, it was about 1300, but I rounded up).

OK, ya have to compare apples to apples here. A manufactured turn key weapon is gonna run you in the neighborhood of $800-$3000 depending on what and who's weapon you buy. If you're budget minded, as I stated, I would recommend you find a manufactured weapon that comes set up as close as possible to what you want and then make the other small changes to arrive at your goal. You can also do this with a used weapon. There are some complete manufacturer weapons that list for around $700.00, like THIS ONE. It might be hard to find it or for that price today, but it is possible. As far as I know, all the manufacturers are on back order with delayed shipping times as people have been buying weapons like a war was about to break out. If you don't have any biases toward one brand or another, I recommend you shop the manufacturer web sites like Bushmaster, DPMS, Rock River Arms, etc. to see if there is something already or close to what you want and within your budget.

If you are dead set on assembling it yourself it can be done for close to your $1500.00 budget BUT( and this is where we could debate this all day and show a lot of examples) this is also dependent on your preferences and likes. If you insist on buying lets say LaRue parts or on not using parts from Company X, you further limit and or increase the price tag of your build. To get an idea of what I am talking about, start looking at the AR websites that sell parts and package deals, like MI and Bravo company and Brownells, Noveske, Daniel Defense and LaRue.

Some people splurge on certain parts and cut corners on others to keep the price down and go all out on others. Some people like to get the "hot" name products at the moment, it's kind of like skydiving gear. However, be wary as there is an ass load of AR stuff out there and some of it is pure crap that is of a low quality and the old saying "you get what you pay for" holds true.

If you're going to go the build it yourself route be prepared to do your homework on making yourself smart on AR builds and parts by reading the AR forums like M-4cabine.net and the .rec of AR building, AR15.com.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[mnealtx 0]

Thanks, Scott - I'll admit, I hadn't looked at all the different choices out there in regards to pre-built rifles. It definitely looks like it would be less expensive to buy 'off the rack' and then customize it, especially for a first AR.

I just found m4carbine.net today and have been reading... unfortunately, I can't reach ar15.com from there - comes back "connection refused".

Any particular parts you feel comfortable recommending/avoiding?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[LouDiamond 1]

Try this link to AR15.com but be warned there is a lot of noise to signal ratio there that you have to wade through. It's like a lot of AFF students trying to teach each other how to skydive based on what they heard around the bonfire. But you can find some good info every now and then there. M4carbine is a whole lot better board to learn and get the no BS answers and advise on a lot of topics.

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Any particular parts you feel comfortable recommending/avoiding?

This is a tricky question as it is akin to asking, "which AAD should I get?" You will get a lot of personal bias and or preference. Personally, I avoid anything made by CAA but thats my personal preference as I think they make low quality items. If you're going to look for indisputable quality then you are talking about items made by Noveske, Larue, Daniel Defense, Magpul,JP, MI, POF,Blue force gear, Eotech, Aimpoint to name a few.


What I suggest, is that you read all the links in the first post of THIS THREAD as it will explain a great deal and address many if not all of your questions that you have asked here and haven't even though of yet. The custom build forum on M4 is another place you might want to spend some time reading as well. The tech forum also if you want to get in up to your elbows on certain items.

EDIT: another good thread to read HERE

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[mnealtx 0]

I can't reach ar15.com from over here - times out or the connection is refused. I've been reading on m4carbine yesterday and today.

CAA is a downcheck - got it. From what I'm seeing on m4, the LMT rifles seem to be pretty well-regarded.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[LouDiamond 1]

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I can't reach ar15.com from over here - times out or the connection is refused. I've been reading on m4carbine yesterday and today.

CAA is a downcheck - got it. From what I'm seeing on m4, the LMT rifles seem to be pretty well-regarded.

Might want to try going through a web proxy to get to AR-15.com, sounds like your location may be what's preventing you from accessing the page.

LMT rifles are well regarded on M4 and a good deal of people like them, they make a good product. Like anything else, there is a bit of gun snobbery in the black rifle crowd and people have their preferred companies/products. Sometimes it's for good reasons, like a quality product or just because it's "what the boys" are using and they want their weapon to be as close as possible. Some people just like to trick their guns out as much as possible to what they think looks cool. Whatever floats their boat I say. To me, it's just a tool and we all know some tools are better than others and some people have a need for tools the average guy might not. So don't let yourself get caught up in the nitpicking that you can run into on the boards sometimes. Find a tool that fits your need and go with it.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[mnealtx 0]

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Might want to try going through a web proxy to get to AR-15.com, sounds like your location may be what's preventing you from accessing the page.

I don't think the network controllers up in Germany would like that... You know how army.mil is about proxies, I'm sure.

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LMT rifles are well regarded on M4 and a good deal of people like them, they make a good product. Like anything else, there is a bit of gun snobbery in the black rifle crowd and people have their preferred companies/products. Sometimes it's for good reasons, like a quality product or just because it's "what the boys" are using and they want their weapon to be as close as possible. Some people just like to trick their guns out as much as possible to what they think looks cool. Whatever floats their boat I say. To me, it's just a tool and we all know some tools are better than others and some people have a need for tools the average guy might not. So don't let yourself get caught up in the nitpicking that you can run into on the boards sometimes. Find a tool that fits your need and go with it.

Well, it looks like LMT has most of the 'wish list' stuff per the comparison chart, so it seems like a pretty good "bang for the buck" in that regard. I'm reading through the links on the technical discussion page you linked to.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kbordson 8]

Hey Mike,

I had Marty look over this thread. There are too many options and too many unasnwered variables.

LouDiamond is giving you solid advice.

Call Marty when you get back to the states or if you get some time while over there. He will be more than happy to chat with you about what you want and what that means as far as cost and wait (for example the LMT is likely a 6+month wait)

Another site to try is [url "http://www.brownells.com/ar15builder/ar15builder.htm"]www.AR15builder.com - it's a feature of the brownells website that lets you build up the weapon with many different options.

[mnealtx 0]

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Hey Mike,

I had Marty look over this thread. There are too many options and too many unasnwered variables.

LouDiamond is giving you solid advice.

Call Marty when you get back to the states or if you get some time while over there. He will be more than happy to chat with you about what you want and what that means as far as cost and wait (for example the LMT is likely a 6+month wait)

Another site to try is [url "http://www.brownells.com/ar15builder/ar15builder.htm"]www.AR15builder.com - it's a feature of the brownells website that lets you build up the weapon with many different options.

Hi Doc - yeah, there's a lot of options out there, but I thought I had the usage pretty well nailed down in the initial post.

I'm basically looking at an AR for plinking/varmint fun - home defense is a plus but not the purpose for the rifle (I've got a 1911 for that). I don't mind spending the extra for enhanced safety/reliability.

I don't *have* to have an M4 clone - but that *does* seem to be the majority of manufacturing, now...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[steve1 5]

I watched a special on TV where experiments were being done with the M-16 Viper. They were using modified ammo for that short of a barrel. It is indeed quite a weapon. I don't know if this would fall into the sub-machine gun category, but it probably would.

Submachine guns have come a long ways over the years. I remember when the UZI was considered the best.

That M-16 Viper would definitely have more power and shoot further than the standard 9 mm parabellum rounds.

I'm not sure what the police use now days, (for a submachine gun) but I'll bet they are a lot better than an UZI.

I think the worst sub-machine gun I fired was a grease gun. What a piece of junk! I didn't like the Thompson either. I'll bet things have come a long way since those weapons were invented.

You mentioned noise being a problem with the Viper. That has me wondering what soldiers do these days to prevent hearing loss. In a fire fight there probably wouldn't be any ear plugs. Inside of a building with numerous weapons and other explosions going off I'll bet it is hard to prevent substantial hearing loss, from even a single fire fight. Even a pistol being fired in a building, without ear plugs is awful.

I still have hearing loss from firing heavy weapons, at Bragg. One day I forgot my ear plugs and didn't want to admit I was stupid. Lack of intelligence was one thing you could get washed out for. I was even stupider in trying to get through that day without hearing protection. My ears rang for days after.

I still don't own a hearing aid, but I should have got one years ago....

[LouDiamond 1]

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That has me wondering what soldiers do these days to prevent hearing loss.

In my community, we all wear Peltors/Sordins as part of our hearing protection and commo package. A lot of the regular Army has moved that way as well.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[AggieDave 6]

You still see some MP5s in the police world, but more and more you see weapons like the FN P90 and just about every AR variant you can think of.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[steve1 5]

This is a bit off the subject....But I was doing some thinking. If there are any BATF types, who read this, don't panic. I don't even own an AR or M-16. I was just wondering how difficult it is to convert one to full auto.

In weapons training, years ago, I was told this was a very simple matter. All you needed was an automatic sear. There isn't much to an automatic sear. I think any handyman or want to be machinist could easily build one. I imagine these can even be bought somewhere, easily enough.

The next question is..... Is a fully automatic M-16 really any more dangerous or even needed. We were trained in the army, to fire about a three round burst and then take you finger off the trigger. The newer M-16's have this built into them (I believe).

In the old days, you could hold the trigger down and use up an entire magazine. The first shot was in there, and the rest were all over the place (usually above your intended target). I can see why the newer models aren't made that way any more.

Are there any situations where full auto is needed? If I owned an AR-15 or M-16 I think I'd be content to leave it as semi automatic. I know people get all panicy when you mention the word full-auto, but I'm wondering if semi-auto isn't just as deadly, on many weapons.

I shot an M-14 on full auto once. The first shot was in there. the next two were way, way, above the target. On weapons that recoil a lot, full auto certainly is not effective. In fact it's a great way to waste ammo.

An M-60 machine gun was like shooting a sewing machine. It had enough heft that the muzzle didn't rise too bad. Full auto was good on a weapon like that.

I can see the purpose of full auto if there isn't much muzzle jump, but on some weapons I wonder why they even have full auto.

On that Viper it would probably be fine because it didn't look like the muzzle was rising much.

There isn't much recoil at all to an M-16, but there is enough muzzle jump (on a longer barrel), that I never really liked shooting it on full auto.

I remember one story, told by a sargent fresh back from Vietnam....An armed enemy soldier was running across an open area. An entire platoon of soldiers openned up with their M-16's on full auto, shooting off hand. Most soldiers figured the more rounds fired, the better. Everyone was soon out of ammo and grabbing for fresh magazines. The enemy soldier was still running unscathed across a rice paddy. Then an old salt with lot's of combat experience, knelt down, fired one or two rounds on semi, and the Viet Cong soldier dropped in his tracks. So much for full auto...

But what do I know. I've never been in combat. Anyone else have any thoughts on this. I know one guy who owns a full automatic AR-15. He acts like this is really a hot item to own. I wonder if a semi-auto (in that weapon) isn't just as deadly....

[JohnRich 4]

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I was just wondering how difficult it is to convert one to full auto... I wonder if a semi-auto (in that weapon) isn't just as deadly....

I'm a believer that deliberate well-aimed shots are better than spray and pray. Unless you've got 1,000 terrorist rag-heads charging at you from only 50 yards away. So I guess it depends on the situation. If you're going to use it for target shooting and self defense, semi-auto will serve you just fine.

As for conversion, I don't know. Many AR's these days have a piece of steel left in the lower half that prevents the installation of an auto-sear. That's how the manufacturer placates the ATF. So you need a machine shop to remove that piece to make room for the sear.

And possession of both an AR and an auto-sear, even if they aren't installed together, is considered possession of a machine gun. If you aren't registered for that, it's worth 10 years in prison.

I'd rather shoot semi-auto then spend 10 years in prison.

[Ron 10]

Not even going to get near how to convert one..... The BATF has busted people for less than just saying how it *could* be done. To the point of going to gun shows UC and asking guys how to do it and then busting them when they said how it *could* be done. So, I will just mention the legal ways.

The easiest way to legally make one is to buy a lightning link that is in the NFA database. I have attached a pic of a registered LL.

It should be noted that a transferable lightning link runs close to 7-8k these days. Also it makes the weapon FA only.

You can buy a legal lower for about 9-10k, or a whole gun for anywhere from 10k to almost 20k depending on type and how it was made FA.

http://www.machinegunpriceguide.com/html/us_mg_6.html

http://www.machinegunpriceguide.com/html/us_mg_7.html

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The next question is..... Is a fully automatic M-16 really any more dangerous or even needed.

Many times FA is a waste of ammo. When I was in the Army, only spec ops folks had true FA weapons since they were the only ones that could show the discipline to not "spray and pray". The regular Army had three round burst.

Most times we only shot on semi.

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I know one guy who owns a full automatic AR-15. He acts like this is really a hot item to own.

It is a hot item to own, they are loads of fun and the price on them just keeps going up.

As for any situations where FA is needed? I could only think of suppression to get them down. But I never saw combat either.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[steve1 5]

Full auto on an M-16 might be affective at close range, as John said. Shoot a few rounds, then release the trigger. That would take discipline.

On the old M-16's, it was easy to slip in an automatic sear. It was held in place by a pin. It sounds like the newer models have all been changed.

I used to be able to disassemble and assemble one, in seconds, almost blind folded. All I needed was the punch on my swiss army knife.

I wouldn't mind owning an AR or M-16 now, but I think I'd enjoy shooting an M-14 more. I enjoyed shooting an M-1 garand too. I just wish they weren't so darn heavy.

Too bad all these rifles cost so much, now days. I imagine too, that you can spend a lot more getting one fine tuned to shoot well....

[rushmc 23]

Started life as an Armalite a2
Added YHM 5005 hand gaurd
Aimpoint Comp M2 2X
NoStar bipod
WCI brake
CAA 6 position stock

Take a look

http://s669.photobucket.com/albums/vv52/rushmc/

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[JohnRich 4]

What's the point of a muzzle brake on a .223?

Attached: My plain-Jane Colt AR-15. No geegaws. It's different where it counts: heavy barrel, one-in-seven twist rate. Shoots like a dream out to 600 yards.

[rushmc 23]

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What's the point of a muzzle brake on a .223?

Attached: My plain-Jane Colt AR-15. No geegaws. It's different where it counts: heavy barrel, one-in-seven twist rate. Shoots like a dream out to 600 yards.

It really works a couple of ways
First, there was a stock Armalite brake on it when I bought it. It was REALLY loud and the barrell would stll jump around more than I would have thought it would.
Second, the flash was very visable (depending on what I was shooting)


This WCI brake (it is more of a compensator) took more jump out of the barrell and when using a scope stays on target much better. The sound is muffled some with the WCI installed. Sounds more like the rifle is spitting out the bullet than the BANG it used to have and
Third, I was watching my son shoot and this compensator contains all the flash inside it. It was kind of amazing watching it from the side and off to the side down range (Yes is way safe, my son and I worked it out before we did this)

So, I guess for all reason I have given, they must be the same reasons the Seals like this brake so much

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[LouDiamond 1]

The WCI brake( and a few others) does a good job at reducing muzzle rise and report. There are some out there that just look cool but the ones that are designed correctly do make a difference.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[rushmc 23]

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The WCI brake( and a few others) does a good job at reducing muzzle rise and report. There are some out there that just look cool but the ones that are designed correctly do make a difference.

Thanks
I do not have a lot of experience with these things but I knew right off the bat that this one works!

I should also say that the original design was for a larger more powerful rounds such as the Grendel 6.5 . The 5.56/.223 was not the intended application (as I understand things) but it does make a difference on the smaller rounds. At least a difference I saw and felt this weekend

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[steve1 5]

Nice looking weapon Marc. Bipods are a needed accessory for long range shooting in my opinion. I use them on most of my hunting rifles for prone shooting.

I don't really like the long bipods that you can use sitting. They are just too big and bulky in my opinion. But even they would be usefull if you have to shoot above tall grass or brush or for those shots when a prone position is impossible.

I usually carry a couple of crossed sticks (light dowel) held together with a heavy rubber band. These work great for a sitting postion above the grass. I've shot a number of deer with them.