Bail Out Package

[billvon 3,107]

>...before they voted for it!

In this case, they voted against it _after_ they voted for it - but yes, same basic idea.

[TrophyHusband 0]

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>OTOH, if it passes and the economy recovers within a relatively short time (say, 12 months) they will have the "we saved your home and your job" angle.

whether or not we recover in 12 months comes down to how we define "recovery". that will be the next big debate.

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[FallingOsh 0]

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> If this bill passes, them dem party will probably sink their chances of
>having control of congress in 2-4 years.

OTOH, if it passes and the economy recovers within a relatively short time (say, 12 months) they will have the "we saved your home and your job" angle. And that looks mighty good compared to a politician whose slogan is "I voted against that."

Assuming the economy did recover in that time... with so little of the money coming out in the next 12 months, even that argument would be widely debated and probably discredited. It's a no-win situation.

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Stay positive and love your life.

[rushmc 23]

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>...before they voted for it!

In this case, they voted against it _after_ they voted for it - but yes, same basic idea.

Just having a little fun

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kelpdiver 2]

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>OTOH, if it passes and the economy recovers within a relatively short time (say, 12 months) they will have the "we saved your home and your job" angle.

whether or not we recover in 12 months comes down to how we define "recovery". that will be the next big debate.

It's the sequel to the year long debate here about whether or not we were in a recession or not.

Unusually, that one actually did have a conclusion that virtually no one could disagree with (McCain excepted).

[marks2065 0]

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> If this bill passes, them dem party will probably sink their chances of
>having control of congress in 2-4 years.

OTOH, if it passes and the economy recovers within a relatively short time (say, 12 months) they will have the "we saved your home and your job" angle. And that looks mighty good compared to a politician whose slogan is "I voted against that."

the will need to put the money out sooner for it to have a chance. they seem to be timing the money release so it may make the next election cycle.

[Capt.Slog 0]

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> If this bill passes, them dem party will probably sink their chances of
>having control of congress in 2-4 years.

OTOH, if it passes and the economy recovers within a relatively short time (say, 12 months) they will have the "we saved your home and your job" angle. And that looks mighty good compared to a politician whose slogan is "I voted against that."

the will need to put the money out sooner for it to have a chance. they seem to be timing the money release so it may make the next election cycle.

Oh, and I thought it was to pay for Wall Street bonuses and Citigroup's new jet.

Amazing that corporations that needed us taxpayers to bail them out of their own incompetence in a financial crisis of their own making are still paying multi $million bonuses to their execs.

[SpeedRacer 1]

You know, I just have no fucking clue about whether the stimulus package is a good idea or not.

Some people on here are saying we shouldn't do it, and all those companies should just be allowed to fail.

Maybe they're right.

But maybe our economy would be fucked up worse if we didn't bail them out. Maybe we would slide into a real depression. Or maybe if we let the companies fail, there'd only be a relatively short difficult period, and we'd recover without wasting all this money. Who knows which path would suck the least?

The thing is, I'm not an expert in economics, and I just don't know.

Of course, neither are the majority of people who post here, but, unlike me, they all seem VERY sure of themselves!

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[rushmc 23]

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You know, I just have no fucking clue about whether the stimulus package is a good idea or not.

Some people on here are saying we shouldn't do it, and all those companies should just be allowed to fail.

Maybe they're right.

But maybe our economy would be fucked up worse if we didn't bail them out. Maybe we would slide into a real depression. Or maybe if we let the companies fail, there'd only be a relatively short difficult period, and we'd recover without wasting all this money. Who knows which path would suck the least?

The thing is, I'm not an expert in economics, and I just don't know.

Of course, neither are the majority of people who post here, but, unlike me, they all seem VERY sure of themselves!

Gotta agree with you to a point here.

What I do know though is less than 15%(and I am being damn conservative with this figure) of the moneis being proposed to spend have nothing to do with a "stimulas" and, a big part of the money does not get spent until 2010 and 2011.

The tax "cuts" Obama proposes simply gives money to some who do not even pay taxes.

If they want to stimulate cut the spending 60% and along with that stop the capital gains tax for 2 years, stop all federal imcome taxes (and others) for 3 months.

It is business, small busines that this company needs up and running. They employ the majority of the people in this country.

And then, term limits......

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[hwt 0]

It is business, small business that this company needs up and running. They employ the majority of the people in this country.
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the one thing that may save up with the package is the proposal to keep the money spent in America. Has anyone noticed that big companies like Catapillar and G.E.are the ones complaining about that part?Why does our country export the very thing that bailed us out of the great depression?Manufacturing.

[rushmc 23]

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It is business, small business that this country needs up and running. They employ the majority of the people in this country.
__________________________________________________
the one thing that may save up with the package is the proposal to keep the money spent in America. Has anyone noticed that big companies like Catapillar and G.E.are the ones complaining about that part?Why does our country export the very thing that bailed us out of the great depression?Manufacturing.

Well, for one thing, the highest business/corp tax rate in the world. Higher than the EU!!!

Why shouldn't they leave????? They are treated like criminals in this country. I would go where I am treated better myself. How about you?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[SpeedRacer 1]

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It is business, small business that this country needs up and running. They employ the majority of the people in this country.
__________________________________________________
the one thing that may save up with the package is the proposal to keep the money spent in America. Has anyone noticed that big companies like Catapillar and G.E.are the ones complaining about that part?Why does our country export the very thing that bailed us out of the great depression?Manufacturing.

Well, for one thing, the highest business/corp tax rate in the world. Higher than the EU!!!

Why shouldn't they leave????? They are treated like criminals in this country. I would go where I am treated better myself. How about you?

ALL of the most developed countries in the world have moved away from a manufacturing-based economy.

Nothing special about the USA in that regard.

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[nerdgirl 0]

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Well, for one thing, the highest business/corp tax rate in the world. Higher than the EU!!!

The statutory rate is higher than *some* nations in the EU.

In actual taxes paid,

"The U.S. corporate tax burden is smaller than average for developed countries.[1] Corporations in 19 of the member states of the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development paid 16.1 percent of their profits in taxes between 2000 and 2005, on average, while corporations in the United States paid 13.4 percent.

"Nevertheless, some have argued that U.S. corporate tax rates unduly burden U.S. companies by pointing to the country’s top statutory tax rate, which is 35 percent. For example, a recent Wall Street Journal editorial calling for corporate tax cuts noted that this is the second highest top statutory tax rate among developed countries.[2] While true, this gives the false impression that the corporate tax burden is greater here than in other developed countries. Because the U.S. tax code offers so many deductions, credits, and other mechanisms by which corporations can reduce their taxes, the actual percentage of profits that U.S. corporations pay in taxes — or what analysts refer to as their effective tax rate — is not high, compared to other developed countries."

References cited: [1] U.S. Department of the Treasury, “Treasury Conference on Business Taxation and Global Competitiveness: Background Paper,” July 23, 2007, Table 5-3 (giving data on a sample of 19 of the 30 OECD states). For an international comparison of corporate-level taxes (taxes paid at the corporate level, including, for example, property taxes, labor taxes and contributions, and sales taxes), see: World Bank and PricewaterhouseCoopers, “Paying Taxes 2008: the Global Picture,” http://www.doingbusiness.org/documents/Paying_Taxes_2008.pdf. This study compared the corporate-level taxation that a hypothetical company with 60 employees would face in 178 countries. The study found that the corporate-level taxes the model company would pay, measured as a percentage of its profits, would be higher in 76 other countries (including 15 OECD countries) than in the United States.

[2] "America the Uncompetitive,” August 15. The ranking is based on data from the Organisation for Economic Co-Operation and Development.


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Overall, US Corporations actually pay the lowest levels of taxes in the post-World War II era. Only a single year (1986) during President Reagan's administration was lower. When one starts parsing through the data, the lowest effective (actual) rates are generally among the largest companies; some even have negative tax rates, e.g., Pepco Holdings, ITT Industries, Boeing, Unisys, Fluor, CSX. The 35% rate is also the top statutory rate of a graduated income scale, i.e., small businesses aren't imposed a 35% statutory rate.

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[Capt.Slog 0]

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It is business, small business that this country needs up and running. They employ the majority of the people in this country.
__________________________________________________
the one thing that may save up with the package is the proposal to keep the money spent in America. Has anyone noticed that big companies like Catapillar and G.E.are the ones complaining about that part?Why does our country export the very thing that bailed us out of the great depression?Manufacturing.

Well, for one thing, the highest business/corp tax rate in the world. Higher than the EU!!!

Why shouldn't they leave????? They are treated like criminals in this country. I would go where I am treated better myself. How about you?

ALL of the most developed countries in the world have moved away from a manufacturing-based economy.

Nothing special about the USA in that regard.

And look what it did for our economies!

[SpeedRacer 1]

It made our economies the best in the world most of the time.

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[Capt.Slog 0]

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It made our economies the best in the world most of the time.

Our economy was best in the world by far when it was manufacturing based.

Basing our economy on "financial services" has led to the current fiasco. When you can make more money by manipulating money than by creating something, you have a problem. I see the Wall Street crowd is still paying themselves huge bonuses.

[masterrig 1]

I'm no economist either but, it seems to me that common sense would call for a full accounting of this 'bail-out' money. To just 'give' these guys who have already scammed so many people all that money and they not have to account for it is beyond belief. For those guys to hand-out huge bonuses so as to keep employees (their reasoning) is nuts. I've had to take pay-cuts as well as my fellow employees, so that the company could stay afloat. You mean to tell me that tese people are too good for that? The way this bail-out is going doesn't make sense.


Chuck

[SpeedRacer 1]

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It made our economies the best in the world most of the time.

Our economy was best in the world by far when it was manufacturing based.

Basing our economy on "financial services" has led to the current fiasco. When you can make more money by manipulating money than by creating something, you have a problem. I see the Wall Street crowd is still paying themselves huge bonuses.

second part is true. But neither America nor the rest of the developed countries have had a "manufacturing based" economy for quite a few decades now.

Do a poll & find out how many people here are employed in a manufacturing-based profession. My guess is most people are not.

For example, I make a living doing biological research at a biotech company. Many of my friends are in the computer industry in one form or another, but not actually MAKING the computers. They are programmers or in I.T.

We get much better salaries doing that kind of work than we would if we were sitting on an assembly line stitching Nikes.

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[masterrig 1]

We get much better salaries doing that kind of work than we would if we were sitting on an assembly line stitching Nikes.

[rushmc 23]

I have heard over and over that this bill was a Democratic pay the supporters back bill. I have been holding off on that opinion. Stien however writes this today in support of that position.

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Ben Stein: Half of Stimulus Goes to Unions

Sunday, February 1, 2009 1:01 PM






Columnist Ben Stein has taken a close look at President Barack Obama's proposed $820 billion stimulus package, and made some eye-opening discoveries.


Writing for Spectator.com and NYPost.com, Stein calculates that:



The House of Representatives debated the bill for eight hours, or roughly $102 billion per hour.



Only 10 percent of the stimulus funds would be spent in 2009.



Almost half of the $820 billion would end up in the pockets of Democratic-controlled unions, such as the Service Employees International Union, and federal, state, and municipal employee unions.



At 680 pages long, neither Obama nor any member of the House had enough time to read the entire bill before the House voted.



The $820 billion would be enough to give every unemployed American $75,000.


Says Stein: "There has been pork-barrel politics since there has been politics, but the scale of this pork is beyond what had ever been imagined before -- and no one can be sure it will actually do much stimulation. ... This has been a punch in the solar plexus to the kind of responsible, far-seeing, mature government processes that are needed to protect America."

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[TrophyHusband 0]

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Almost half of the $820 billion would end up in the pockets of Democratic-controlled unions, such as the Service Employees International Union, and federal, state, and municipal employee unions.

is this true? i hope not. wtf?

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[rushmc 23]

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Almost half of the $820 billion would end up in the pockets of Democratic-controlled unions, such as the Service Employees International Union, and federal, state, and municipal employee unions.

It is starting to make sense. Scarry as hell but at least I understand why.....

is this true? i hope not. wtf?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[hwt 0]

Do a poll & find out how many people here are employed in a manufacturing-based profession. My guess is most people are not.
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I have a good idea , lets export our manufacturing and take up bio-tech jobs and ect. and if we ever go to war with China we can just ask them to make our goods.
My machine shop Can't buy the raw steel as cheap as China can buy our scape steel, ship it to china, manufacture the product and ship it to us.and why?
China subsidizes their steel and they have slave labor wages . sounds like fair trade to me..

[Rookie120 0]

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Do a poll & find out how many people here are employed in a manufacturing-based profession. My guess is most people are not.

Depends on where you go. Go to Michigan and ask that question and I bet a lot are in manufacturing. Go to Silicon valley and I bet not to many are in that profession.

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We get much better salaries doing that kind of work than we would if we were sitting on an assembly line stitching Nikes.

Thats nice. But a lot of those people relied on those manufacturing jobs. They probably didnt make as much as you but it is how they make there living. If you take all those people who do manufacturing jobs and train them all to do bio research what do you think it would do to the pay for that job. I bet it would drive the pay down.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[SpeedRacer 1]

well, yeah.

Not too many people have the education & skills to do molecular biological research. But a much larger number of people have the skills to do routine assembly line work.

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