"More Guns = More Crime?"

[nerdgirl 0]

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You know what the problem is with trying to derive something from violent crimes, they are all far too situational. Sure, there are patterns related to the category a crime falls into but if there was a solid verifiable answer to guns and crimes 100% of the time there would be no more arguments on the right course of action.

I don't think I understand what you're trying to argue here? If one, as you describe, assumes that all things are situational, i.e., there are no dependent variables, wouldn't that argue for or against *any* policy?

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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You know what the problem is with trying to derive something from violent crimes, they are all far too situational. Sure, there are patterns related to the category a crime falls into but if there was a solid verifiable answer to guns and crimes 100% of the time there would be no more arguments on the right course of action.

I don't think I understand what you're trying to argue here? If one, as you describe, assumes that all things are situational, i.e., there are no dependent variables, wouldn't that argue for or against *any* policy?

/Marg

I wasn't talking policy. He was trying to prove to me that maybe a big bad something is maybe out to get me and I might need to carry a gun because it it might just help.

I try to keep away from policy decisions on things like guns and religion. My views are rather unique and could never fall into any category. Thus, I outright support what exists in the 1st and 2nd. Fear mongers on the other hand.....well, there is more than one way to live your life and many have lived a very happy and peaceful life with and without guns around them. I can accept both as viable ways to live your life. It just astounds me that someone would be so adamant on trying to convert someone to the contrary. John can't even fathom why I know I will never need one. I just find it funny that here I am, a supporter of the 2nd and he considers me "one of them." He doesn't even correctly pick his battles and that is largely due to him being unable to see beyond his nose.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[mnealtx 0]

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Your right, because so many people have suceeded in taking away from us since 1776.....

It CAN and HAS happened - NYC, DC, Chicago.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

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This is totally pointless. Liberals want more gun control until someone breaks into their house and their family gets killed by some crackheads looking for money to buy drugs. I'm just gonna let anyone know. Try and break into my house while I'm in bed. Not only will you have 2 .40 S&W's pointed at your skull, but if you move ever so slightly...you head could become misfigured in a matter of milliseconds.

Well, aren't YOU just all 'John Woo'....

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

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What I see is you and your post history. It's blinding.

And this is different from YOUR post history constantly bashing Bush, how?

That knee is jerking around pretty good, isn't it.

As for that "you must live in fear" bullshit, trying to sound morally superior - you forget something.

I've got the gun - I don't need to fear that breaking window at 3 am.

Whereas YOU will do two things in that situation:

1. Call someone with a gun.
2. Pray they arrive in time.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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What I see is you and your post history. It's blinding.

And this is different from YOUR post history constantly bashing Bush, how?

And clearly GW is relevant here? I guess this is the new catch phrase/subject I should get used to reading over the next 8 years? Eh, ok, if that's the tradeoff I'm fine with that.

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As for that "you must live in fear" bullshit, trying to sound morally superior - you forget something.

I've got the gun - I don't need to fear that breaking window at 3 am.

Whereas YOU will do two things in that situation:

1. Call someone with a gun.
2. Pray they arrive in time.

Clearly I would break out my WD40 and Duct Tape as DHS told me...oh wait, I think I am starting to get all this fear stuff mixed up. Yea, guess I'm fucked since you clearly know my living situation and all contingencies thus impacted by that. Jesus, how could I have missed that my list stops at option 2. HOLY FUCK now I see it, I guess I do need a gun.

Interesting how you see living without fear as morally superior when I see it as a healthy choice of living. To each his own I guess.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[mnealtx 0]

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What I see is you and your post history. It's blinding.

And this is different from YOUR post history constantly bashing Bush, how?

And clearly GW is relevant here?

Try again - you spoke of JR's posting history, I spoke of yours.

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I guess this is the new catch phrase/subject I should get used to reading over the next 8 years? Eh, ok, if that's the tradeoff I'm fine with that.

Life's tough - wear a helmet. Want a tissue?

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Clearly I would break out my WD40 and Duct Tape as DHS told me...oh wait, I think I am starting to get all this fear stuff mixed up. Yea, guess I'm fucked since you clearly know my living situation and all contingencies thus impacted by that. Jesus, how could I have missed that my list stops at option 2. HOLY FUCK now I see it, I guess I do need a gun.

Lame - YOU can lecture about how gunowners must "live in fear" but then whine when the same tactic is used on you?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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Try again - you spoke of JR's posting history, I spoke of yours.

Um? Ya, cause it was relevant to the topic about guns? You know, the thing JohnRich pretty much lives to post about?

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Life's tough - wear a helmet. Want a tissue?

Wooosh. Right over your head. Sorry, I'll try to be more obvious next time.

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Clearly I would break out my WD40 and Duct Tape as DHS told me...oh wait, I think I am starting to get all this fear stuff mixed up. Yea, guess I'm fucked since you clearly know my living situation and all contingencies thus impacted by that. Jesus, how could I have missed that my list stops at option 2. HOLY FUCK now I see it, I guess I do need a gun.

Lame - YOU can lecture about how gunowners must "live in fear" but then whine when the same tactic is used on you?

Um, tactic? You are trying to show I have a lack of options and how I should be scared if something happens to my window at 3am? Unless there are smoke and mirrors that I'm missing, I clearly got what you said and was openly mocking your attempt to sway me with your argument. But sure, ya...ok...lame or whatever you said. Oh, ok, I'm scared now! You won me over!

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[mnealtx 0]

*yawn*

You tried your usual "NRA talking points" bullshit and got your ass handed to you.

You tried the "posting history" gambit and got your ass handed to you.

You tried the "gun owners live in fear" angle and got your ass handed to you.

Quit now, before you make yourself look any more idiotic on the subject.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

Internets are serious business! I don't know how I can get any sleep tonight after having my ass handed to me (sic). If this was any other forum I would post a lolcat as reply because that's really what this deserves (and would make more sense).

Sure Mike. You came in at the tail end of something and spouted off something that wasn't even close to current conversation. I don't even think you read all of my posts in this thread. I guess this is where I'm supposed to shut up and let you have the last word so you think you won. Well, I'm going to bed so go ahead and reply to this so you can feel victorious overnight.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[downwardspiral 0]

At a brief glance it does look similar...I'll take a more in depth look at it tomorrow. I'll also see if I can find the original post I made citing the study.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[kelpdiver 2]

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I almost never post anything using the NRA as a source.

Almost never != never

...
and I know I will never need one in my daily life.

Here is a clear case for "almost never over never." You won't know your statement is true, until proven false at great consequence.

[JohnRich 4]

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But to think you like you do? It must really suck to live in that much fear.

There you go with your blinders again! Just because I have guns for self defense, does not mean that I live in fear. Take off the blinders!

Since you skydive with a reserve, does that mean that you jump in constant fear of a malfunction? When you drive your car with your seatbelt, does that mean that you drive in constant fear of an accident? Gosh, how can you stand to live in such fear of so many things going wrong! Forget the seat belt. Forget the reserve parachute. Forget the home defense gun. Enjoy life!

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To sit around and worry about factors that will impact me outside my level of control? No thanks. If it happens, it happens and if that means it's the end of me, oh well. At least I would have lived a good life up to that point.

So you think everyone should just calmly resign themselves to dying at the hands of bad guys when those situations arise? I think not. I'm going to fight for my life. Bad guys don't deserve to do that to good guys. If you want to sacrifice your life without a fight, that's your choice. If everyone acted like you, then the bad guys would take over and there would be chaos. So don't be telling other people that they shouldn't be allowed to fight back with a gun.

[JohnRich 4]

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well, there is more than one way to live your life and many have lived a very happy and peaceful life with and without guns around them. I can accept both as viable ways to live your life. It just astounds me that someone would be so adamant on trying to convert someone to the contrary.

I don't try to force people to carry a gun if they don't want to. Everyone is free to make their own self defense choices, or to just get on their knees and die, as you have chosen. What I'm against is other people telling me that I shouldn't have a gun for self defense. That's when the debate goes from personal choice, to a nationwide mandate against armed self defense, and capitulation to criminals. I won't do that. That's what I'm against.

[billvon 3,116]

>Since you skydive with a reserve, does that mean that you jump in
>constant fear of a malfunction?

Personally, I've jumped both with and without a reserve.

There's nothing wrong with jumping with a reserve, and in fact will help you far more often than it hurts you. But if there is no way you would ever jump without a reserve, you may be overly reliant upon it, and may be using it as a crutch to justify lousy gear maintenance, poor packing and/or poor control of body position. Best to fix those problems.

Same with any piece of safety gear. AAD's are great. But if you jump with one because you're not confident you can pull on time, and it gives you the extra confidence you need to jump, it may be increasing, not decreasing, the odds of your death.

[Nightingale 0]

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I try to keep away from policy decisions on things like guns and religion. My views are rather unique and could never fall into any ry. Thus, I outright support what exists in the 1st and 2nd. Fear mongers on the other hand.....well, there is more than one way to live your life and many have lived a very happy and peaceful life with and without guns around them.

You should have the choice to live your life without owning guns. I respect that. What I absolutely cannot respect is the position that takes the choice out of the hands of the individual, the "people" and places it in the hands of the government. The right to keep and bear arms is one that explicitly belongs to the people, the individual citizens. That right is to own guns, or to choose not to, and it's an individual decision. It's not a decision that anybody gets to make for me, and it's not a decision that I get to make for you.

[rushmc 23]

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I try to keep away from policy decisions on things like guns and religion. My views are rather unique and could never fall into any ry. Thus, I outright support what exists in the 1st and 2nd. Fear mongers on the other hand.....well, there is more than one way to live your life and many have lived a very happy and peaceful life with and without guns around them.

You should have the choice to live your life without owning guns. I respect that. What I absolutely cannot respect is the position that takes the choice out of the hands of the individual, the "people" and places it in the hands of the government. The right to keep and bear arms is one that explicitly belongs to the people, the individual citizens. That right is to own guns, or to choose not to, and it's an individual decision. It's not a decision that anybody gets to make for me, and it's not a decision that I get to make for you.

+1

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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I don't try to force people to carry a gun if they don't want to. Everyone is free to make their own self defense choices, or to just get on their knees and die, as you have chosen.

I see what you did there. Again, I don't expect you to understand and I think BillVon did a good job of extending your comparison. I could add that I've trained and practiced my EPs with a gun and wouldn't stumble if one was put in my hands. However, there are other options to protect yourself and I prefer those routes. Thus, I know I won't ever need one. Could there be that one random occurrence that I never see coming? Of course, but who says it will be a "bad guy" and not some random space rock that fatally hits me in the head? There is nothing you can do to prepare for such a thing nor could you influence it not to happen. Sometimes the wrong time and the wrong place happen to good people; life is that chaotic by default. You could do everything right and still die. Hrmm...where have I heard that before.....

Meanwhile, I'll enjoy life with a better outlook. This is not to say I trust everyone, because I certainly don't and I learned the hard way the assholes will try to bring you down for their own personal gain. I've already missed out on too much in my life due to pain related issues recently. I won't let something beyond my control scare me into living any differently.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[kelpdiver 2]

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I could add that I've trained and practiced my EPs with a gun and wouldn't stumble if one was put in my hands. However, there are other options to protect yourself and I prefer those routes. Thus, I know I won't ever need one. Could there be that one random occurrence that I never see coming?

Some incidents are beyond your control no matter what you do. And some become beyond your control based on decisions you make. I would categorize the gun at the same level as the AAD or RSL.

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Meanwhile, I'll enjoy life with a better outlook.

You're interjecting your own viewpoint here - both on the notion that it's a better outlook, and that the others aren't enjoying life just as much. Both are merely your opinion with no basis in fact.

[Nightingale 0]

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I see what you did there. Again, I don't expect you to understand and I think BillVon did a good job of extending your comparison. I could add that I've trained and practiced my EPs with a gun and wouldn't stumble if one was put in my hands. However, there are other options to protect yourself and I prefer those routes. Thus, I know I won't ever need one. .

Wow.... I'm glad you're so confident in your training. I've trained in karate for about twenty years now, and I'm certainly not that cocky. Have you ever had your skills tested in a real life situation? I have.

I've trained and practived my emergency procedures without a gun, and when I had to use those procedures, it was still a damn close thing, and my attacker was unarmed, as far as I know. If he'd had a gun and I was unarmed, nothing close about it. If we'd both had guns, well, I train with my firearms more often than many police officers, and a hell of a lot more than the average thug, so I'd put the odds slightly in my favor there, plus the element of surprise.

[Ron 10]

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Educate people with all the facts and allow them to make their own decision. You might be surprised at the result.

You mean like when the DOJ said before the 94 AWB that those types of weapons were only used in less than 4% of crimes...But they were banned anyway?

Or like how legal full auto machineguns that have only been used TWICE in a crime since 1934 but Congress passed the Hughes Amendment in 1986 to prevent law abiding citizens from being able to buy new ones?

Or maybe how the CDC came out and said that they could find no connection between gun bans and any reduction in crimes rates....Yet some still want to ban all types of weapons?

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CDC's position in Oct 2003:

In the exhaustive brief, the CDC analyzed scientific evidence regarding "bans on specified firearms and ammunition, restrictions on firearm acquisition [including waiting periods], firearm registration and licensing, concealed-carry laws, child-access-prevention laws, zero-tolerance laws for firearms in schools and combinations of firearms laws." The verdict? "[B]The Task Force found insufficient evidence to determine the effectiveness of any of the firearms laws or combinations of laws reviewed on violent outcomes[/B]." The task force also concluded that "firearms-related injuries in the United States have declined since 1993" despite the fact that "approximately 4.5 million new firearms are sold each year."

Or maybe how the SC ruled that DC's ban was not Constitutional, yet they played tricks to try to keep it?

Or how Chicago has a gun ban, yet gun crime increases?

You mean those kinds of facts?

The simple fact is that there are those that want to take away all guns and no matter what facts you provide....They will cling tight to their opinion no matter what.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

Food for thought, lets ban bows

http://www.khou.com/topstories/stories/khou090119_mh_workplace_shooting.da65fb3.html

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HOUSTON -- A woman armed with a bow and arrow and a mock gun stormed into a northwest Houston business Monday and allegedly shot an employee.

Witnesses: Woman shot man with bow and arrow
January 19, 2009 Julie Parker shot the victim, Armando Silva, with an arrow.

“I saw him with a bow and arrow in the side of his chest. He was fading," said Alex Quiroga, the victim's co-worker. "The girl was running toward the building to the hallway.”

They said Silva was loaded into an ambulance with the arrow still sticking out of his chest.

"Yea, was pretty scary," said Mike Barrera, a witness. "I just saw when they got him out of the building. He had an arrow on the left side and he wouldn't fit in the ambulance. They had to cut the arrow off to get him in."

It happened Monday afternoon at Texas Components, a micro electronics company located at 1662 West Sam Houston Parkway.

Witnesses said other employees of the business pulled out their own pistols. They were able to knock the mock gun away from Parker, but when she allegedly threatened to shoot them with another arrow, they fired a couple shots at her.

Workers gathered outside Texas Components after the incident.
“When police got here, I gave them directions of what I saw and they surrounded the area," said George Dustin, another witness. "They moved in, and then we heard a half a dozen gunshots inside.”

A Houston Police Department spokesperson confirmed that an officer did shoot 30-year-old Parker after a brief standoff. It's not clear why she was shot, but they did learn that her father worked at the company.

She was also taken to an area hospital. Both Parker and Silva are listed in stable condition.

Parker has been charged with Aggravated Assault and Aggravated Assault on a Police Officer.

The two workers who shot the woman were both licensed to carry a concealed weapon.

Not the whole story...But close enough. So, who's for banning arrows? Luckily, the two had pistols.

BTW, the police took 25 min to get there AFTER shots were fired.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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Wow.... I'm glad you're so confident in your training. I've trained in karate for about twenty years now, and I'm certainly not that cocky. Have you ever had your skills tested in a real life situation? I have.

I'm sure there are some things lost in translation over the web. Don't take it for cocky by any measure and don't think I feel immune either. I don't live in a daydream and I know the realities of life. Yes, I've been tested and I had to protect someone in the process, and someone tried to mug me in college. Also, despite having an uncle that was shot dead in the back for doing so, I've put myself in the middle of drunken bar fights to split them up (protecting friends) and taken my fair share of bumps in fights I've caused during some younger/reckless days (my brother and I put each other in the ER multiple times up to college from fighting - we were quite competitive with each other).

Do I expect to win the next time I'm put in a bad spot? I have no idea, I can't plan for such a random occurrence and I have no desire to carry a gun on me at any time out of the slight chance it could happen. But feel free to carry one if you feel otherwise - I've got no problem with that.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[Nightingale 0]

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Do I expect to win the next time I'm put in a bad spot? I have no idea, I can't plan for such a random occurrence and I have no desire to carry a gun on me at any time out of the slight chance it could happen. But feel free to carry one if you feel otherwise - I've got no problem with that.

Too many people DO have a problem with that. That's my point. There are too many people out there that want to tell me that I can't protect myself when I am a living example that the world is not the safe, happy, fluffy-bunny and sunshine place that they want to think it is, and if we just pass enough laws then everyone will all get along. I spent ten years of my life working with vicitms who listened to that shit and didn't take any steps to protect themselves until after they became victims, and then it was too late! Once they learned the hard way, then they came to me to train and learn how not to be a victim next time, and it helped them be stronger and heal and learn not to jump at every shadow, but it didn't stop what had already happened. Getting trained and taking steps to protect yourself before something happens is vital, and I'm damn lucky I did, even if it was just by coincidence (I just did karate because I liked it!).

You say there's a "slight chance" of finding yourself in a bad spot? Look at it from a different perspective: 1 out of every 5 American women is sexually assaulted in her lifetime, and 4 out of every 100 men. (source: Prevalence, Incidence and Consequences of Violence Against Women, 1998). I don't call 20% a slight chance, but hey, I guess 4% isn't so bad.

Overall, I guess men are more likely to walk away from bad spots. When a guy fights with you in a bar, it's not about killing you or raping you, it's usually about a display of drunken dominance, and even when it isn't, when you put a guy in a fight with another guy, you've probably got close to even odds. If you are trained, your odds are better. If you put a woman in a fight with a man, her odds are going to be less, even if they're the same size, and the reason they're fighting is probably not just a bar fight. Women simply don't have the strength or muscle mass that men do, so carrying a weapon is a reasonable precaution.

[Skyrad 0]

Hi John,
The latest UK crime figure are going to be published in half an hour from now. I know you enjoy reading them.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca