hwt 0 #1 January 7, 2009 The government threw money at the financial sector (with out fixing what is broken), Then they threw money at the Automakers (with out fixing the problem)and now they want to throw money everywhere (with out fixing the problem). They gutted the manufacturing sector with their so called free trade and ruined the housing sector by pushing lower requirements. Now they want to throw money at it. What we the people need is fair trade and not free trade and fair loan requirements and incentives to bring back and keep manufacturing in America. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SpeedRacer 1 #2 January 8, 2009 what's wrong with free trade, and exactly how would you define this thing you call "fair trade"? Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airdvr 210 #3 January 8, 2009 Boat left port on manufacturing awhile back. Sorry you missed it. What we neeed now is for the government to get the fuck out of the way and let the free market do what it was intended to do.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shropshire 0 #4 January 8, 2009 What goes around comes around ... when many countries in the west had it good and imposed less than fair trade agreements on other countries - you'd never hear our companys complaining then. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DrewEckhardt 0 #5 January 8, 2009 Quote They gutted the manufacturing sector with their so called free trade Pressures from labor costs in the rest of the world were going to catch up with us. While you can't sneak a car carrier full of automobiles in built with $150/month labor versus $30/hour in the US and other developed countries, you can sneak in intellectual property built by top notch graduates earning $5k/year (enough to have live-in help, like a maid who does your laundry and cooks your meals) versus $50K/year (living with room mates in expensive cities). With automation increasing, that IP makes up an increasing percent of the value of consumer products. Quote and ruined the housing sector by pushing lower requirements. The government housing access programs had nothing to do with it, having default rates comparable to the market as a whole with a tiny fraction of the total loan value. Banks getting paid with every loan they wrote and real estate agents 3% of every sale had everything to do with it. Housing crashed because banks made money selling people loans they couldn't afford without taking any hit when they tanked years later when the interest rates adjusted to a sustainable level with a yield enough beyond Treasury instruments to compensate for the risk. Any one with a decent job who wants to actually retire put $15,500 into their 401K last year, $11,000 in for 2002, and whatever the legal limit was before that with more into accounts that aren't taxed advantaged. When things got out of hand those of us who were silly enough to get bad mortgages dipped into our savings and ponied up where the people who were living hand to mouth tanked. It wasn't that sub-prime loan holders were unique in getting in over their head; they were just the first to show up on radar because they had no other option to delay the inevitable. The real fun is just starting as pay-option arms reset and people decide between making a $3K loan + tax + HOA payment on a property that's hundreds of thousands under water versus a $1500 rental payment with bad credit for 7 years (easily a $300K difference in your net worth if you put the delta into savings). The smart choice is half the payment with bad credit since a smart person won't be buying property for a long time. More people are behind on their payments now than ever. Foreclosures would be way up if banks hadn't realized they had the option of loosing up to half their money now, or accepting loan modifications where they could wait 30 years and get balloon payments when properties are worth more or foreclosures on properties with some equity. Quote What we the people need is fair trade and not free trade and fair loan requirements and incentives to bring back and keep manufacturing in America. People are going to get free trade whether they want it or not. The only questions are how much of their money is going to disappear into black market overheads and how painful the collision between first and third worlds will be. People need housing prices to crash so they can get loans in line with they can actually afford. Manufacturing isn't going to return to America until we drop the minimum wage below a buck and hour and reduce the cost of living so that's sustainable or freeze wages and wait for inflation to catch up in the rest of the world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hwt 0 #6 January 8, 2009 What goes around comes around ... when many countries in the west had it good and imposed less than fair trade agreements on other countries - you'd never hear our companys complaining then. That is because big companies profit by importing goods made by countries paying slave wages.While all the small shops are pushed out of business. And, you must know how much big business can sway the government's position on our one sided trade agreements. I worked in my father's shop back in the mid 60s and i own a small CNC machine shop now.By the way our economy affects the entire world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marks2065 0 #7 January 8, 2009 Quote What goes around comes around ... when many countries in the west had it good and imposed less than fair trade agreements on other countries - you'd never hear our companys complaining then. That is because big companies profit by importing goods made by countries paying slave wages.While all the small shops are pushed out of business. And, you must know how much big business can sway the government's position on our one sided trade agreements. I worked in my father's shop back in the mid 60s and i own a small CNC machine shop now.By the way our economy affects the entire world. we will continue to see things get worse until our tax and labor figures become competitive with the rest of the world. I can see no good reason for a company to open shop here in the US when they can make the same product over seas for half the cost. As far as housing goes, when did everyone become entitled to have a house? or insurance? People need to become responsible for themselves. If someone wants something they need to find a way to earn it. maybe they don't need a big screen tv, cable with every option, or a 60k car with 10k in rims. Maybe people need to get a second job or look for a better one. How can unemployment be as high as it is with every paper listing thousands of jobs? some politician recently called the american people whiners, and you know, he is right. this entire mess is caused by people thinking that they should be given everything and have to earn nothing, living beyond their means, and not being acountable for their actions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites carmenc 0 #8 January 8, 2009 Quote Quote What goes around comes around ... when many countries in the west had it good and imposed less than fair trade agreements on other countries - you'd never hear our companys complaining then. That is because big companies profit by importing goods made by countries paying slave wages.While all the small shops are pushed out of business. And, you must know how much big business can sway the government's position on our one sided trade agreements. I worked in my father's shop back in the mid 60s and i own a small CNC machine shop now.By the way our economy affects the entire world. we will continue to see things get worse until our tax and labor figures become competitive with the rest of the world. Do you really want our US labor force to be paid like 3rd world workers? Really? I'm sure the US execs would like to be paying their skilled workers $1.45/hr, like in China. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DrewEckhardt 0 #9 January 8, 2009 Quote Do you really want our US labor force to be paid like 3rd world workers? Really? It's not about what we want. I want my investments to skyrocket so I can live off them an not have to work for money. As long as we have money flowing out to get resources which can't be produced in sufficient quantity domestically (oil, titanium, memory chips...) we need people buying our goods and services so we have money to spend on those imports. That means that our overhead (wages and taxes) needs to be competitive with other peoples', and over two billion of those people live places with salaries and costs of living 1/10th ours. Quote I'm sure the US execs would like to be paying their skilled workers $1.45/hr, like in China. There's enough profit to allow Chinese and Indian wages to raise and things like car ownership are increasing. They're wages are going to go up in real terms and ours are going to go down. The totals on our pay checks may remain the same, although they'll buy less from the ouotside world (big screen TVs might trade at $3000 again instead of $1500). The Yuan might be trading at $1 instead of $.14 so their pay checks might remain the same in local currency to. However it happens, our wages and theirs have to converge if we're not going to close our borders and enter a new dark age where the masses can't afford insustrial products built with scarce domestic resources. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shropshire 0 #10 January 9, 2009 QuoteDo you really want our US labor force to be paid like 3rd world workers? Really? I'm sure the US execs would like to be paying their skilled workers $1.45/hr, like in China. If that's what it takes - yes... look would you rather earn minimum wage or nothing and be handed out nothing? A lot of our jobs are on the line - so what should we do whinge/cry - what would that solve? Does the world owe us anything? - (No is the right answer there BTW) (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Capt.Slog 0 #11 January 9, 2009 QuoteBoat left port on manufacturing awhile back. Sorry you missed it. What we neeed now is for the government to get the fuck out of the way and let the free market do what it was intended to do. 584,000 newly unemployed in November, 524,000 in December. Worst year for unemployment since WWII. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hwt 0 #12 January 9, 2009 One more thing to think about... Who is going to manufacture our war goods if we have another world war??China?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shropshire 0 #13 January 9, 2009 No one - so at least something good comes out of this shite. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rstanley0312 1 #14 January 9, 2009 I just get a kick out of what Americans think they are entitled to have..... a home, 75k+ a year, health care, etc. None of this is just given but earned and it is this idea that has put us where we are. You can blame whomever you want but the truth is it comes down to Americans thinking they deserve the world. Just look at the credit card debt! P.S. I want a crest! Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it. Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000 www.fundraiseadventure.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
SpeedRacer 1 #2 January 8, 2009 what's wrong with free trade, and exactly how would you define this thing you call "fair trade"? Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 210 #3 January 8, 2009 Boat left port on manufacturing awhile back. Sorry you missed it. What we neeed now is for the government to get the fuck out of the way and let the free market do what it was intended to do.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #4 January 8, 2009 What goes around comes around ... when many countries in the west had it good and imposed less than fair trade agreements on other countries - you'd never hear our companys complaining then. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #5 January 8, 2009 Quote They gutted the manufacturing sector with their so called free trade Pressures from labor costs in the rest of the world were going to catch up with us. While you can't sneak a car carrier full of automobiles in built with $150/month labor versus $30/hour in the US and other developed countries, you can sneak in intellectual property built by top notch graduates earning $5k/year (enough to have live-in help, like a maid who does your laundry and cooks your meals) versus $50K/year (living with room mates in expensive cities). With automation increasing, that IP makes up an increasing percent of the value of consumer products. Quote and ruined the housing sector by pushing lower requirements. The government housing access programs had nothing to do with it, having default rates comparable to the market as a whole with a tiny fraction of the total loan value. Banks getting paid with every loan they wrote and real estate agents 3% of every sale had everything to do with it. Housing crashed because banks made money selling people loans they couldn't afford without taking any hit when they tanked years later when the interest rates adjusted to a sustainable level with a yield enough beyond Treasury instruments to compensate for the risk. Any one with a decent job who wants to actually retire put $15,500 into their 401K last year, $11,000 in for 2002, and whatever the legal limit was before that with more into accounts that aren't taxed advantaged. When things got out of hand those of us who were silly enough to get bad mortgages dipped into our savings and ponied up where the people who were living hand to mouth tanked. It wasn't that sub-prime loan holders were unique in getting in over their head; they were just the first to show up on radar because they had no other option to delay the inevitable. The real fun is just starting as pay-option arms reset and people decide between making a $3K loan + tax + HOA payment on a property that's hundreds of thousands under water versus a $1500 rental payment with bad credit for 7 years (easily a $300K difference in your net worth if you put the delta into savings). The smart choice is half the payment with bad credit since a smart person won't be buying property for a long time. More people are behind on their payments now than ever. Foreclosures would be way up if banks hadn't realized they had the option of loosing up to half their money now, or accepting loan modifications where they could wait 30 years and get balloon payments when properties are worth more or foreclosures on properties with some equity. Quote What we the people need is fair trade and not free trade and fair loan requirements and incentives to bring back and keep manufacturing in America. People are going to get free trade whether they want it or not. The only questions are how much of their money is going to disappear into black market overheads and how painful the collision between first and third worlds will be. People need housing prices to crash so they can get loans in line with they can actually afford. Manufacturing isn't going to return to America until we drop the minimum wage below a buck and hour and reduce the cost of living so that's sustainable or freeze wages and wait for inflation to catch up in the rest of the world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hwt 0 #6 January 8, 2009 What goes around comes around ... when many countries in the west had it good and imposed less than fair trade agreements on other countries - you'd never hear our companys complaining then. That is because big companies profit by importing goods made by countries paying slave wages.While all the small shops are pushed out of business. And, you must know how much big business can sway the government's position on our one sided trade agreements. I worked in my father's shop back in the mid 60s and i own a small CNC machine shop now.By the way our economy affects the entire world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks2065 0 #7 January 8, 2009 Quote What goes around comes around ... when many countries in the west had it good and imposed less than fair trade agreements on other countries - you'd never hear our companys complaining then. That is because big companies profit by importing goods made by countries paying slave wages.While all the small shops are pushed out of business. And, you must know how much big business can sway the government's position on our one sided trade agreements. I worked in my father's shop back in the mid 60s and i own a small CNC machine shop now.By the way our economy affects the entire world. we will continue to see things get worse until our tax and labor figures become competitive with the rest of the world. I can see no good reason for a company to open shop here in the US when they can make the same product over seas for half the cost. As far as housing goes, when did everyone become entitled to have a house? or insurance? People need to become responsible for themselves. If someone wants something they need to find a way to earn it. maybe they don't need a big screen tv, cable with every option, or a 60k car with 10k in rims. Maybe people need to get a second job or look for a better one. How can unemployment be as high as it is with every paper listing thousands of jobs? some politician recently called the american people whiners, and you know, he is right. this entire mess is caused by people thinking that they should be given everything and have to earn nothing, living beyond their means, and not being acountable for their actions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
carmenc 0 #8 January 8, 2009 Quote Quote What goes around comes around ... when many countries in the west had it good and imposed less than fair trade agreements on other countries - you'd never hear our companys complaining then. That is because big companies profit by importing goods made by countries paying slave wages.While all the small shops are pushed out of business. And, you must know how much big business can sway the government's position on our one sided trade agreements. I worked in my father's shop back in the mid 60s and i own a small CNC machine shop now.By the way our economy affects the entire world. we will continue to see things get worse until our tax and labor figures become competitive with the rest of the world. Do you really want our US labor force to be paid like 3rd world workers? Really? I'm sure the US execs would like to be paying their skilled workers $1.45/hr, like in China. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #9 January 8, 2009 Quote Do you really want our US labor force to be paid like 3rd world workers? Really? It's not about what we want. I want my investments to skyrocket so I can live off them an not have to work for money. As long as we have money flowing out to get resources which can't be produced in sufficient quantity domestically (oil, titanium, memory chips...) we need people buying our goods and services so we have money to spend on those imports. That means that our overhead (wages and taxes) needs to be competitive with other peoples', and over two billion of those people live places with salaries and costs of living 1/10th ours. Quote I'm sure the US execs would like to be paying their skilled workers $1.45/hr, like in China. There's enough profit to allow Chinese and Indian wages to raise and things like car ownership are increasing. They're wages are going to go up in real terms and ours are going to go down. The totals on our pay checks may remain the same, although they'll buy less from the ouotside world (big screen TVs might trade at $3000 again instead of $1500). The Yuan might be trading at $1 instead of $.14 so their pay checks might remain the same in local currency to. However it happens, our wages and theirs have to converge if we're not going to close our borders and enter a new dark age where the masses can't afford insustrial products built with scarce domestic resources. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #10 January 9, 2009 QuoteDo you really want our US labor force to be paid like 3rd world workers? Really? I'm sure the US execs would like to be paying their skilled workers $1.45/hr, like in China. If that's what it takes - yes... look would you rather earn minimum wage or nothing and be handed out nothing? A lot of our jobs are on the line - so what should we do whinge/cry - what would that solve? Does the world owe us anything? - (No is the right answer there BTW) (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capt.Slog 0 #11 January 9, 2009 QuoteBoat left port on manufacturing awhile back. Sorry you missed it. What we neeed now is for the government to get the fuck out of the way and let the free market do what it was intended to do. 584,000 newly unemployed in November, 524,000 in December. Worst year for unemployment since WWII. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hwt 0 #12 January 9, 2009 One more thing to think about... Who is going to manufacture our war goods if we have another world war??China?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #13 January 9, 2009 No one - so at least something good comes out of this shite. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rstanley0312 1 #14 January 9, 2009 I just get a kick out of what Americans think they are entitled to have..... a home, 75k+ a year, health care, etc. None of this is just given but earned and it is this idea that has put us where we are. You can blame whomever you want but the truth is it comes down to Americans thinking they deserve the world. Just look at the credit card debt! P.S. I want a crest! Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it. Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000 www.fundraiseadventure.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
