Belgian_Draft 0 #126 January 8, 2009 QuoteQuoteYa know what, i think I'm gonna join the "metrics suck" group. I mean, really, isn't it much simpler to convert inches to feet to yards to miles...than to convert millimetres to centimetres to metres to kilometres. All those tens give me a headache. And volume! Ounces, pints, quarts, gallons is soooo much easier than much easier than those pesky liters. Heck, their just based on those stupid metre things anyway. And weights & mass...forget it! Grams are crackers, not units of mass. Overall, it's just ridiculous to have 1000 cubic centimetres be called 1 liter, and have 1 liter of pure water at 4C be of 1 kilogram mass. It's just stupid. Pecks and acre-feet are two of my favorites. Did you know that 1 furlong/fortnight is almost exactly 1 cm/minute? 0.997857143HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #127 January 8, 2009 QuoteLet's face it. The real resistance is nothing more than 'not invented here' syndrome. well, duh. Same reason we continue to speak English - it's been done for centuries and there not a compelling reason to change. The arbitrary foot works as well as that arbitrary meter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #128 January 8, 2009 What really matters is standardisation... ensuring that every time you use a Metre - it's the same length and (probably more importantly) that 2 or more people use the same standard measures whilst working cooperatively (remember the space probe fiasco? or the fact the the U.S don;t use a real gallon etc... etc...). Call them what you want, base your standard upon what you want but be consistent. That's what SI aims to achieve. Does anyone know (or remember) when the 2 sets of so called imperial units moved apart (I think that it's only liquid volumes and possibly dry measures - cups, teaspoons etc..) and why? Who else uses the U.S version? (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #129 January 8, 2009 QuoteMetric you have to say millimeter, centimeter, decimeter. I have never realy said decimetre since primary school. Deci, Mili, Centi... = 10, 1000, 100... what does inch mean? mile? chain, how do they relate to each other? 1 cubic centimetre of water weighs 1 gram and is 1 mililitre, it boils at 100 degrees celcius and freezes at 0 degrees celcius, if you times those figres by 10 or 100 or 49 or 1000,000 those corelations will continue infinantly. So aside from being a tounge twister of syllables, each name decribes this and eliminates additional calculations that would need to be done using the imperial system. say for seing how much the 679 litres of water is? = 679KG! try doing that with pounds and gallons!"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 3 #130 January 8, 2009 Quote Quote My Grandmother was a crack expert Now, that just isn't right Oh - I forgot to mention that her doorbell went "bong!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Erroll 80 #131 January 8, 2009 Quote ...a tounge twister of syllables... Speaking of which, just how long is a tounge? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #132 January 8, 2009 Quote>And how would building trades deal with this? Same way they deal with the fact that 2x4's aren't 2 inches by 4 inches, I imagine. > If I'm doing repairs on my old farm house will I have to buy metric sized >materials and cut them down? Studs will go to half a meter on center? Probably. Of course, your old farmhouse doesn't use 4 by 8 sheets of plywood either; you'll have to cut them down anyway. Times change and materials move on. If you want to repair your old post-and-conductor wiring in your old farmhouse, for example, you can't. You have to put in Romex instead. Even though they are no longer truly 2X4, they are still measured in INCHES, and are still 16" on center. What is a good reason to change that? (All wiring has been replaced, with cable that came in 100 FOOT rolls. And actually, it was built with true 2X4 studs, then "sheeted" with full one INCH thick rough cut lumber for the sub-floors and outside of outer walls). The only thing I can think of that is metric are the shingles; which is OK since they do not need to fit rafter spacing. So especially with millions of units of housing stock, why change to metric? The runout period for having to keep standard dimension stuff around for repair and modification would be decades, or more like centuries. What would be the driving force to impose something other than 4X8 sheets, 2X4's, and whatnot? Just to be like somebody else?" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #133 January 8, 2009 The biggest problem with the English system is that it uses the same words to mean different things. In enginering school I saw many students who (for whatever reason) could not grasp that a pound of mass (lbm) and a pound of force (lbf) were two completely different measurements. The fact that one lbm weighs one lbf in one gravity made things worse. In order to have a self consistent set of English units, you have to use the mass measurement called a slug. How many of you non-scientific types have even heard of a slug? I work in the US aerospace industry, and suprisingly we still use English units almost exclusively. Sure, if the contract specifies that drawing be in metric we'll do that, but the designers make sure that the English units are also noted so that people can visualize how big things actually are. Same thing with densities, thrusts, temperatures, etc. People are used to thinking in English units and the institutional momentum is staggering. The US will change over to SI eventually, but I honestly think it will take decades. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #134 January 8, 2009 QuoteThe US will change over to SI eventually, but I honestly think it will take decades. Shhhh...don't give them an inch, they'll take 1.6 kilometers.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
carmenc 0 #135 January 8, 2009 QuoteThe biggest problem with the English system is that it uses the same words to mean different things. In enginering school I saw many students who (for whatever reason) could not grasp that a pound of mass (lbm) and a pound of force (lbf) were two completely different measurements. The fact that one lbm weighs one lbf in one gravity made things worse. In order to have a self consistent set of English units, you have to use the mass measurement called a slug. How many of you non-scientific types have even heard of a slug? I work in the US aerospace industry, and suprisingly we still use English units almost exclusively. Sure, if the contract specifies that drawing be in metric we'll do that, but the designers make sure that the English units are also noted so that people can visualize how big things actually are. Same thing with densities, thrusts, temperatures, etc. People are used to thinking in English units and the institutional momentum is staggering. The US will change over to SI eventually, but I honestly think it will take decades. So watt English unit do they use for electrical power? Do they install 1/4 HP landing lights? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hwt 0 #136 January 8, 2009 And how would building trades deal with this? The same way machine shops currently deal with it now We learn to convert metric-inches using decimals and converting fractions to decimals and visa verse.We do both. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #137 January 8, 2009 QuoteDo they install 1/4 HP landing lights? That's unintentionally kind of funny. When our products land you don't want to be nearby. I don't ever have cause to deal with electrical issues, but yes, we use volts, amps, watts, etc. in our sensors. Except in electrical engineering there is little or no interaction between electric units and units of length, mass, and force, so it doesn't cause a conflict for the average engineer. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 3 #138 January 8, 2009 Quotethe average engineer. Define that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #139 January 8, 2009 Anyone who's not quite as good as me. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
carmenc 0 #140 January 8, 2009 QuoteQuoteDo they install 1/4 HP landing lights? That's unintentionally kind of funny. When our products land you don't want to be nearby. I don't ever have cause to deal with electrical issues, but yes, we use volts, amps, watts, etc. in our sensors. Except in electrical engineering there is little or no interaction between electric units and units of length, mass, and force, so it doesn't cause a conflict for the average engineer. The average engineering text book nowadays uses SI units, so that's what the average engineer is learning. In the SI system the electric units are obviously and simply related to mechanical units, which is very useful for anyone dealing with electromechanical systems of any sort. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #141 January 8, 2009 Quote The average engineering text book nowadays uses SI units, so that's what the average engineer is learning. Right. And when they get to their first job in the real world, and start actually learning how to be an engineer, they are forced to use English units. Trust me, I went through this a couple years ago. No one wanted to hear anything about Newtons and milimeters. This is why I think it will take a couple generations of engineers for SI to be adopted in the engineering world. My generation will already be familiar with SI units, and when they next generation shows up, it will be a lot easier for us to switch. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #142 January 8, 2009 QuoteAnd how would building trades deal with this? Easy. Buy in metres, sell in feet (and that's a nice tidy profit in your pocket). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,173 #143 January 8, 2009 >Even though they are no longer truly 2X4, they are still measured in INCHES . . . The measurement is just as accurate in centimeters as it is in inches. Heck, call it a 4x9, keep it exactly the same size, and it would be more accurate. That would help prevent the common handyman mistake of assuming that four 2x4's stacked together is 8 inches across. >All wiring has been replaced, with cable that came in 100 FOOT rolls. And if it came in 50 meter rolls, installation would not change one bit. In fact, you'd end up saving money on larger jobs by having fewer unusable pieces left over. >So especially with millions of units of housing stock, why change to metric? See above. Like I said, use whatever units you like. But when lots of money or lives are at stake, we would be better served by a unit of measure that's always the same. >The runout period for having to keep standard dimension stuff around >for repair and modification would be decades, or more like centuries. Eh, we'd just hire smarter carpenters who own a calculator. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,173 #144 January 8, 2009 >And when they get to their first job in the real world, and start actually >learning how to be an engineer, they are forced to use English units. I found the opposite. After I started working, I started to use millimeters, degrees C, watts and grams a lot more frequently. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #145 January 8, 2009 Quote Quote the average engineer. Define that. Sum(Engineers)/Number_of_Engineers (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 3 #146 January 8, 2009 Quote>Even though they are no longer truly 2X4, they are still measured in INCHES . . . The measurement is just as accurate in centimeters as it is in inches. Heck, call it a 4x9, keep it exactly the same size, and it would be more accurate. That would help prevent the common handyman mistake of assuming that four 2x4's stacked together is 8 inches across.. When someone threatens to smack me upside the head with a 2x4, I have no trouble visualizing what they mean. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #147 January 8, 2009 Quote say for seing how much the 679 litres of water is? = 679KG! try doing that with pounds and gallons! 679 gallons x 8.8 pounds. Roughly (in head) 6000lbs. If I need more accurate values (it was already 99.6% accurate), the calculator comes out, just as it would if I wanted an accurate 679 x 2.2. BTW, when was the last time you handled 679 liters of water and needed to know its weight? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #148 January 8, 2009 Quote Quote Quote The gram is not arbitrary - it relies on the meter such that 1cc of water is 1g. Actually, water is pretty arbitrary too since it density varies quite a bit with temperature, so you have to put all sorts of other conditionals on it. Which is why specific gravity and not density is used; it already has standard temperature and pressure built in. Ah, but STP isn't quite where 1 gram of water occupies 1 cm^2. It's closer to 277.13 K and 101.325 KPa. Water is a terrible terrible thing to base standards on. Expanding on DanG's observation of the aerospace industry... space is a mess when it comes to units. NASA/JPL... USAF... component manufacturers... the various national laboratories... everyone's got systems that differ at least slightly, you have to learn to deal with it. Even "Système International" as a name for a unit system leaves something to be desired when you're traveling beyond Earth's immediate vicinity. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #149 January 8, 2009 Quote When someone threatens to smack me upside the head with a 2x4, I have no trouble visualizing what they mean. Well not to worry Andy, the type of people who make those types of threats will be among the last to convert. Nice company you keep. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,173 #150 January 8, 2009 >When someone threatens to smack me upside the head with a 2x4 . . . Is that better or worse than going metric on your ass? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
