Who was Jesus? Vote now...

[Coreece 190]

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>Jesus was a maveric rabbi who would have been seriously pissed off had he known Paul et all would be opening up his sect to non-Jewish members after his death.

>>I agree, Paul never even met Jesus (unless you count the account he gave of his conversion on the raod to Damascus) Barnbus on the other hand walked with Jesus and was hacked off with Paul to the point where they went their seperate ways when Paul allowed non Jews in, renounced the practise of circumcision and threw the dietary laws of Mosses out the window. Still how the hell was Paul going to sell having to give up pork and getting your willy cut to the Romans? I'd say Paul is the founder of Christianity not Jesus.

>>>I'll amend my previous post:

Haven't read much of the gospels, have ya?

>>Actually read them all, have you?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I have also...
The following passage seems to stick out among others:

Luke 14:15-24

When one of those who reclined at table with him heard these things, he said to him, "Blessed is everyone who will eat bread in the kingdom of God!" But he said to him, "A man once gave a great banquet and invited many. And at the time for the banquet he sent his servant to say to those who had been invited, 'Come, for everything is now ready.' But they all alike began to make excuses. The first said to him, 'I have bought a field, and I must go out and see it. Please have me excused.' And another said, 'I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to examine them. Please have me excused.' And another said, 'I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.' So the servant came and reported these things to his master. Then the master of the house became angry and said to his servant, 'Go out quickly to the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in the poor and crippled and blind and lame.' And the servant said, 'Sir, what you commanded has been done, and still there is room.' And the master said to the servant, 'Go out to the highways and hedges and compel people to come in, that my house may be filled. For I tell you, none of those men who were invited shall taste my banquet.'"

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[No_Phear 0]

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I wasn't concerned, as I was not plagerizing, just passing along the info,

Erm, cutting and pasting without citing your source and attaching your own name to it is plagiarism by definition.

An oversight, that has been fixed.... See below.

Anything in the BDM Discernment Notebook is freely available, and thus, no charge may be levied by you for the material. This means that you may download and copy verbatim and distribute any report BDM has posted to the Discernment Notebook sections of the web site, as long as the statement "Copyright BDM. All Rights Reserved" is included.

Tact is not my specialty.....

Dirty Sanchez #453

[br0k3n 0]

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In any case, I can't remember which ones you are referring to, so as I tire of this particular debate, I will adjourn, I have better things to do, like jump out of planes. It has been a real pleasurable debate though.

loL, that's right when the questions get tough bury your head in the sand, Jebus will save you after all....

-----------------------------------------------------------
--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[livendive 8]

So it's your belief that everyone who subscribes to a religion other than your's is in a cult?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[maadmax 0]

Very informative summary on cults. Thanks!

[BikerBabe 0]

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Jesus was a maveric rabbi who would have been seriously pissed off had he known Paul et all would be opening up his sect to non-Jewish members after his death.

I agree, Paul never even met Jesus (unless you count the account he gave of his conversion on the raod to Damascus) Barnbus on the other hand walked with Jesus and was hacked off with Paul to the point where they went their seperate ways when Paul allowed non Jews in, renounced the practise of circumcision and threw the dietary laws of Mosses out the window. Still how the hell was Paul going to sell having to give up pork and getting your willy cut to the Romans? I'd say Paul is the founder of Christianity not Jesus.

I'll amend my previous post:

Haven't read much of the gospels, have ya?

Actually read them all, have you?

I have. How about Luke 7:1-10, eh?

" 1When Jesus had finished saying all this in the hearing of the people, he entered Capernaum. 2There a centurion's servant, whom his master valued highly, was sick and about to die. 3The centurion heard of Jesus and sent some elders of the Jews to him, asking him to come and heal his servant. 4When they came to Jesus, they pleaded earnestly with him, "This man deserves to have you do this, 5because he loves our nation and has built our synagogue." 6So Jesus went with them.
He was not far from the house when the centurion sent friends to say to him: "Lord, don't trouble yourself, for I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. 7That is why I did not even consider myself worthy to come to you. But say the word, and my servant will be healed. 8For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it."

9When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, "I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel." 10Then the men who had been sent returned to the house and found the servant well."

FYI, roman centurions weren't Jewish. they were gentiles, like the rest of us.

Or perhaps Jesus's great commission itself...what he told the disciples to do, from Matthew 28:18-20 (emphasis mine):

"Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

shall i go on? I would have to say with 99% certainty that Jesus would most definitely NOT be "seriously pissed off had he known ..."

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[Coreece 190]

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shall i go on?

yes please do...

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I would have to say with 99% certainty that Jesus would most definitely NOT be "seriously pissed off had he known ..."

Thanks...you saved me from comming back here and cursing up a storm...I almost tore off by robes in indignace!

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Skyrad 0]

There were many nations that Jesus would have known about most of them would be in what is now modern day Israel. In Canaan for example which was then a seperate nation Jews had lived there since 1400 BC. Just because he MAY have said go to all nations doesn't mean he wanted to teach all peoples and throw the laws of Mosses out the window. (Especially as he was very clear on the fact that he did not come to do so.)
Numbers 34:2 says "the land of Canaan as defined by its borders." The borders are then described in Numbers 34:3-12. A person coming from Canaan would therefore be classed as a Cananite regardless of their religion. For example: Mathew 15

21Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.

22And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

23But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

24But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

25Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

26But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

27And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

28Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Was this woman a Jew from Canaan? He said her faith was great, its possible. But in Jesus own words...

I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[nanook 1]

Is the laughing over? Do you have anything that tells me I'm wrong?

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"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

[Coreece 190]

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Is the laughing over? Do you have anything that tells me I'm wrong?

First of all....Greetings!

Happy New Year!

It was a wonderful end to this historical year.

Now....

I believe I addressed my point about Pope Paul.

But do not despair....I have reclothed myself back into my robes. I'm building my case during this most wonderful and eventful morning...

ooooh....I smell coffee!
Expect a reply to Skyrad soon....

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[DSE 5]

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He was an Hispanic bowler with a rap sheet.

Nuh-uh! He was a rock star. I saw the movie of his bio. Ted Neeley studied under him, and IMO, did a better job than the original. One might even suggest Jesus was the Elvis of his day.

-Elvis walked on water, so did Jesus.
-Elvis died, but many think he's really still alive, just like Jesus.
-Elvis had a bigger following in his lifetime than all the people on the planet combined at the time of Jesus.
-Elvis sold more records than Jesus did.
-There are more books about Elvis than there are books in the bible.
-Elvis was a white guy that sang like he was black. Jesus was a black guy that everyone portrays as white.
-Elvis wore white flowing robes of leather and studs; Jesus wore white flowing robes of cotton (leather wasn't cool in the desert, especially with the vegans).

They maybe were even related, because I've seen movies of Elvis; one of them he was making love to a woman and she screamed "Sweet Jesus!" at the appropriate time.

Jesus is more popular than Elvis though...

Happy New Year, Ryoder

[nanook 1]

Happy New Year to you too!!

Now from what I understand of this:

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I find it hard to believe that the earliest Christians would prescibe to the Catholic belief system. I doubt Peter or Paul (the self proclaimed CHEIF of all sinners!)....whoever, to consider themselves as Infallible Holy Fathers.

Catholocism and Western Christianity have evolved greatly since the very beginning. Catholicism is definitely not the same, that I give you. Neither is other christian groups. You are right about Paul, he never thought if himself as Infalliable. I'm not catholic, so I never heard of any previous popes call themselves infalliable.

Your earliest "christians" were of course, Jews. But the meaning behind calling them christians is conceptually wrong. Paul believed that anyone could worship outside the tenants of the Torah, which the original Apostles disagreed with. So they argued and then broke off. Paul's group would come to be the christian faith.

_____________________________

"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

[Coreece 190]

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There were many nations that Jesus would have known about most of them would be in what is now modern day Israel. In Canaan for example which was then a seperate nation Jews had lived there since 1400 BC.

This will not really matter for our discussion. I’ll attempt a brief exposition in a minute that will show us this woman was in fact a Gentile.

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Just because he MAY have said go to all nations doesn't mean he wanted to teach all peoples…

You say “MAY have said go to all nations.” If you’re not sure he said that, one could assume that you think he may not have really said the very words you use to support your apocryphal claim. I find this remarkable!

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…..and throw the laws of Mosses out the window. (Especially as he was very clear on the fact that he did not come to do so.)

Yes he was very clear that he came to fulfill the Law. He hadn’t done so yet….very important.

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Numbers 34:2 says "the land of Canaan as defined by its borders." The borders are then described in Numbers 34:3-12. A person coming from Canaan would therefore be classed as a Cananite regardless of their religion.

Again…we will see that this woman was in fact a “Gentile Dog.”

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Was this woman a Jew from Canaan? He said her faith was great, its possible.

No…and I assure you, I will not give you an answer as unsatisfying as “She was a Gentile because she had great faith.

As a whole, your supposition is already epically debunked through the example of great faith displayed in the quoted passage. Great faith is ultimately the lesson from this section of scripture and we see the rewards of that faith of this gentile woman in the text itself……


Lets break it down a bit....

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First, there is parallel passage in Mark that will enable us to grasp a better understanding of this story….I will use both:

Mathew 15: 21
Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.

Mark 7:24
And from thence he arose, and went into the borders of Tyre and Sidon, and entered into a house, and would have no man know it: but he could not be hid.

The importance here is to note why Jesus came to this gentile land in the first place…surely he was not to minister to the heathen; he was trying to hide temporarily. One could suppose he was trying to distance himself from the Pharisees for his criticism of their religion or to just take a break from being put through the wringer.

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Mathew 15:22
And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

Mark 7:25-26
For a certain woman, whose young daughter had an unclean spirit, heard of him, and came and fell at his feet: The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter.

When we look at the passages parallel to eachother, it becomes clearer that this woman is in fact a Gentile….A Greek Syrophenician. This will become even clearer as we will see later.

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Mathew 15:23
But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

It is unclear to me exactly what they meant by “send her away.” Either give her what she wants so she leaves, or just get rid of her. Either way, they’re reasoning is probably self serving.

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Mathew 15:24-27
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

It is true that Jesus was sent unto the house of Israel. It was his personal ministry here on earth, but I do not think we should be surprised that he ministered to Gentiles since we have another seperate passage that addresses this:

Mathew 12:14-21

But the Pharisees went out and conspired against him, how to destroy him. Jesus, aware of this, withdrew from there. And many followed him, and he healed them all and ordered them not to make him known. This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: “Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved with whom my soul is well pleased. I will put my Spirit upon him, and he will proclaim justice to the Gentiles. He will not quarrel or cry aloud, nor will anyone hear his voice in the streets; a bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not quench, until he brings justice to victory; and in his name the Gentiles will hope.”

I do however acknowledge that the main emphasis was on ministering to Israel:

Mathew 10:5-6
These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Its because of this that Jesus must give the “great commission.” Here are the parallel verses for your convenience of comparison so that you may have a better understanding:

Mark 16:15
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Luke 24:46-47
And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day. And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Matthew 28:18-19
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost…

It now should be clear that when Jesus said “all nations,” he meant every creature throughout all the nations of the whole entire world starting with Jerusalem FIRST.

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Mathew15:26-27
But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

Mark 7:27-28 27
But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs. And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs.

The word “dog” was commonly known by the Jews to refer to the Gentiles. Furthermore, if she was a Jew why then even say all this about Israel vs. dogs anyway…It wouldn’t have even been an issue…

It does seem harsh to say these words, but I know Jesus not to be an unsympathetic cruel racist. He was trying to make a point that would benefit everybody involved. The woman’s answer was a tremendous display of faith and perseverance. It would be like if you died and Jesus said….”No, I have nothing to do with you, be gone” but you persist because you allow NOTHING to hinder your faith in Him. This is just another example of God testing the faithful, similar to God testing Abraham…It could have been very easy for the woman to just say “fine! screw you than!” This is an example to us ALL.

This also served to benefit the disciples that were with him…It is not a secret that he used Gentiles as examples of great faith, to prepare them for the “Great Commission.”

Ultimately, the end of this Story shows us that Jesus in fact is not pissed at the Gentiles or whatever it is you’re trying to promulgate….Please reconsider:

Mathew 15:28
Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Mark 7:30
And he said unto her, For this saying go thy way; the devil is gone out of thy daughter.
And when she was come to her house, she found the devil gone out, and her daughter laid upon the bed.

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I will leave you with a summarization from a man named Jon W. Quinn explaining the moral of the story….

“When that day was over, and this mother held her daughter in her arms, free at last from the cruel bondage she had suffered, and reflected on the events of that day, how do you suppose she felt? The Messiah had pronounced her faith as "great". He had answered her request for her daughter's healing. She had not let the others persuade her to give up. And, even at that darkest moment when it seemed as if she would not find the answer she desired, she pressed on. So, how did she feel at day's end? She had only asked for crumbs from the Master's table. She instead had received a feast. You can be sure she felt fine. It had been a very good day.” - Jon W. Quinn

Lastly, I think Samuel Rutherford says it the best…..
“It is faith’s work to claim and challenge loving-kindness out of all the roughest strokes of God.” - Samuel Rutherford

There is much more we can say about all this but this should suffice for now...lets see where it goes.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Skyrad 0]

What? No happy new year?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Coreece 190]

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What? No happy new year?

I had a feeling I wasn't clear enough....just didn't want to be redundant.

Happy New Year Mate!

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[tbrown 26]

I think Jesus was a real person, probably a charismatic rabbi, and not necessarily a pacifist. His earliest followers were Jews who believed that God was about to strike the Romans down and drive them out to re-establish a holy kingdom. He wasn't at all shy about kicking over the moneychangers' tables in the temple - which by the way was across the street from the Roman police station, where the Romans were always keeping a close eye on the Temple anyway. The ruckus Jesus kicked up in the Temple would have most definitely come to their attention right away and might be what made him a wanted man.

Jesus may have actually believed he was the Messiah. But the "Son of God" is not necessarily the same thing as "God the Son". The concept of God coming to earth in the mortal form of a man is a distinctly pagan concept and quite foreign to Jewish thinking. Divinity was a claim made by Egyptian pharoahs and Roman emporers. Ditto for virgin birth, which was also supposedly one of Alexander the Great's attributes. And of course Zeus was always coming to earth in one form or another to knock up as many young girls as he could when his wife wasn't looking. It's a pagan concept.

Most of the divine attributes of Jesus came about after the uprising and destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, when the Jewish Christian sect was essentially wiped out. The remaining believers were Romans and other subjects of the empire, who had come from pagan backgrounds. They took the core beliefs and reinvented them in a pagan form more comfortable with what they'd grown up with. Like believing that Jesus was actually God in the flesh.

This poses a dilemma to a believing Christian. I doubt that Jesus was the god/man I was raised up to believe in as a child. But the Christian tradition is certainly a worthwhile system of beliefs, even if it is a synthesis of Jewish and pagan traditions. I'm not willing to throw the whole set of beliefs over the side, nor do I think it's necessary.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[Skyrad 0]

Happy New Year to you too! thanks for the long and well put together response. I see what you are saying but I think an argument can be made either way.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

Finally we agree on something!

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[ryoder 1,590]

Happy New Year, DSE!

And now for my contribution, (directed and no one in particular):

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Jesus was a Capricorn, he ate organic foods.
He believed in love and peace and never wore no shoes.
Long hair, beard and sandals and a funky bunch of friends.
Reckon they'd just nail him up if He come down again.

'Cos everybody's got to have somebody to look down on.
Who they can feel better than at anytime they please.
Someone doin' somethin' dirty, decent folks can frown on.
If you can't find nobody else, then help yourself to me.

Get back, John!

Egg Head's cousin Red Neck's cussin' hippies for their hair.
Others laugh at straights who laugh at freaks who laugh at squares.
Some folks hate the whites who hate the blacks who hate the clan.
Most of us hate anything that we don't understand.

'Cos everybody's got to have somebody to look down on.
Who they can feel better than at anytime they please.
Someone doin' somethin' dirty, decent folks can frown on.
If you can't find nobody else, then help yourself to me.

Help yourself, brother.
Help yourself, Gentlemen.
Help yourself Reverend.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[DSE 5]

I didn't realize you were old enough to know who Kris Kristopherson is, let alone know his catalog! Impressive.

[ryoder 1,590]

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I didn't realize you were old enough to know who Kris Kristopherson is, let alone know his catalog! Impressive.

Back story:

When I was 19, my GF's parents sent her out of state to get her away from me.
She was living with her sister and brother-in-law in an adjacent state.
So every weekend I would drive over there and spend the weekend with them, (we got along fine).
They played Kristofferson all the time, and I really didn't care for it.
Well, the parents figured out that I was spending my weekends there, so they shipped her off to live with her brother and his wife...2000 miles away.

Some months later, moping around, I got the strange urge to hear Kristofferson again, so I bought a tape. I really don't care for anything else of the Country/Western genre, but I like Kristofferson.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Coreece 190]

Cobswabble!

So what would you have us do, get a DNA transplant?

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[rwieder 0]

Jesus was the son of God, concieved by the Holy Ghosts, and born of the Virgin Mary in the city of Bethleham. He upset the reining figureheads that were in place 2009 years ago and really upset the leaders. They were offended that he was proclaiming to be the son of God. So they killed him. He died so we may have eternal life. His last words while hanging nailed to the cross on Golgatha was "Eli, Eli Lama Thabachthami." "My God, My God Why Hast Thou Foresaken Me?" He was 32 years old when he passed his time on earth, buried in a tomb and rose again 3 days later, ascended into heaven to sit upon the right hand of his Father.

If you don't believe any of what i say here remember this: "Faith Cometh By Hearing, And Hearing Through The Word Of God.

Fire Away.

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[No_Phear 0]

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Jesus was the son of God, concieved by the Holy Ghosts, and born of the Virgin Mary in the city of Bethleham. He upset the reining figureheads that were in place 2009 years ago and really upset the leaders. They were offended that he was proclaiming to be the son of God. So they killed him. He died so we may have eternal life. His last words while hanging nailed to the cross on Golgatha was "Eli, Eli Lama Thabachthami." "My God, My God Why Hast Thou Foresaken Me?" He was 32 years old when he passed his time on earth, buried in a tomb and rose again 3 days later, ascended into heaven to sit upon the right hand of his Father.

If you don't believe any of what i say here remember this: "Faith Cometh By Hearing, And Hearing Through The Word Of God.

Fire Away.

Amen to that

Tact is not my specialty.....

Dirty Sanchez #453

[Andy9o8 2]

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I doubt that Jesus was the god/man I was raised up to believe in as a child. But the Christian tradition is certainly a worthwhile system of beliefs, even if it is a synthesis of Jewish and pagan traditions. I'm not willing to throw the whole set of beliefs over the side, nor do I think it's necessary.

"Beliefs" and "ethical code" are not necessarily the same thing. One can discard the theistic beliefs in the Bible and still consider it to be a pretty good ethical code to live one's life by. Except for the part about stoning your slaves. That part could use some revision.