Bush cant even get his pardons right

[Amazon 7]

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That's just the best known and most obvious example. Others include radar, sonar, navigation aids, aerodynamics, engine technology, ballistics, fuel technology, electronics, metallurgy, codebreaking...

Those who are able to do these things are wasted as infantrymen.

Too bad we cant get a few more would be lawyers on the front lines.

[akarunway 1]

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...its FAR more important of a crime to get a blow job

If you are refering to the crime for which Bill clinton was impeached, the actual crime was for lying to a grand jury. The last I checked, perjury was a pretty serious crime.

Do you have any evidence that Bush was a chicken?

I guess that's why Bush and Co. hid and destroyed evidence and otherwise refused supeonas to testify under OATH to congress. Executive privilige and all that crap. And if he wasn't a chicken where did all his NG records disappear to? Isn't power grand? You can get away w/ murder. A sad commentary on humanity.

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[akarunway 1]

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In case you haven't noticed, it seems from the last few elections that active partcipation in a combat zone is not the way to get into the White House. The last President who actually fought in a war was Bush 1.
Bush 2 avoided by being in th NG, and Clinton just flat out dodged any service at all. As far as I know, Obama was never in the military either.

Of course I know this, but you asked for proof that he is a chicken. I think that makes him a chicken.

Bush 1, had a plan during the 1st Gulf War. We had a defined mission and once that mission was over we got out. just like we should have. He also has Colin Powell (one of the best military leaders of our time) to help keep him on track in that regard.

Clinton at least didnt get us into a false war.

Junior....well...... he is junior and you see where he got us.

As far as Obama. I hope that he ends up having the sense that Junior lacks. I wont judge him until he gives us something to judge him on.

For the record. I do think that a requirement to be President of the US, should be to have served on Active duty in the Armed Forces. Gives them something to think about before they decide to send our countries youth off to die.

Amen. A CINC should have been there, done that.

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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And as Kallend has pointed out, our national interests were much better served letting the scientists on the Manhattan Project build the bomb.

That's just the best known and most obvious example. Others include radar, sonar, navigation aids, aerodynamics, engine technology, ballistics, fuel technology, electronics, metallurgy, codebreaking...

Those who are able to do these things are wasted as infantrymen.

So you would have an infantry that was not able to understand or even operate radar, sonar, navigation aids, fuel management systems, or codebreaking equipment? Not able to understand or use basic engineering concepts?
Sounds like a giant step backward and a good way to get a lot of men killed.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

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[kelpdiver 2]

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And as Kallend has pointed out, our national interests were much better served letting the scientists on the Manhattan Project build the bomb.

That's just the best known and most obvious example. Others include radar, sonar, navigation aids, aerodynamics, engine technology, ballistics, fuel technology, electronics, metallurgy, codebreaking...

Those who are able to do these things are wasted as infantrymen.

So you would have an infantry that was not able to understand or even operate radar, sonar, navigation aids, fuel management systems, or codebreaking equipment? Not able to understand or use basic engineering concepts?
Sounds like a giant step backward and a good way to get a lot of men killed.

Huh?

I'm not aware of the infantry division that is also an active R&D program. That's not their mission.

The military does have some research outfits, but they rely more on private companies, universities, and research organizations. This is a far more effective approach to take. The military can focus on its core competency - training for an engaging in war making. It is not training scholars or budding businessmen in place of grad school or real world experience.

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[kelpdiver 2]

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I think the older women in politics would take great offense to a declaration that they could only run for President if they had served as a nurse rather than whatever career they seeked.

Maybe I wasnt clear enough in my post. I didnt mean or say that they had to be a nurse. Just stating a fact that the older women in politics, if they had served, would have been in that type of a job.

Meaning, that the only way you'd vote for these women is if they had been a nurse. Were there any other eligible military roles for women in the 50s, 60s, even 70s? Even fast forwarding to now, there are limits on the opportunity for women soldiers. Elizabeth Dole, Diane Feinstein, both unqualified.

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Those who entered their 20s between 1975 and 1990 had no call to duty. If serving actually discourages future wars,

I also never said that they had to serve in an actual conflict. Simple active duty service would be enough for me.

So if there's no war, they should waste a couple years for no real gain? And if there's no war, what lessons on the seriousness of conflict will they learn?

[mnealtx 0]

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It is more than evident that you support your Imperious Leader in war crimes and buttfucking the american taxpayer to the tune of TRILLIONS of dollars for the personal gain of his buddies.I will continue to point this out for you...

It usually helps when you actually have PROOF of the claim...still waiting on that 'for the personal gain of his buddies' thing - you'd think after 8 years you could come up with something.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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And as Kallend has pointed out, our national interests were much better served letting the scientists on the Manhattan Project build the bomb.

That's just the best known and most obvious example. Others include radar, sonar, navigation aids, aerodynamics, engine technology, ballistics, fuel technology, electronics, metallurgy, codebreaking...

Those who are able to do these things are wasted as infantrymen.

So you would have an infantry that was not able to understand or even operate radar, sonar, navigation aids, fuel management systems, or codebreaking equipment? Not able to understand or use basic engineering concepts?
Sounds like a giant step backward and a good way to get a lot of men killed.

Huh?

I'm not aware of the infantry division that is also an active R&D program. That's not their mission.

The military does have some research outfits, but they rely more on private companies, universities, and research organizations. This is a far more effective approach to take. The military can focus on its core competency - training for an engaging in war making. It is not training scholars or budding businessmen in place of grad school or real world experience.

I underlined and put in bold the statement I was responding to. He made no mention of any R&D, only that "Those who are able to do these things are wasted as infantrymen". That's what he wrote, must be what he meant.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

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[nerdgirl 0]

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For the record. I do think that a requirement to be President of the US, should be to have served on Active duty in the Armed Forces. Gives them something to think about before they decide to send our countries youth off to die.

Do you realize that if your advocacy had been followed the US would not have had a number of Presidents … some that perhaps were not among the best, such as President van Buren and President Cleveland … but you also sacrifice some of he best President Jefferson, President John Adams, President James Madison, President Woodrow Wilson, President Franklin Roosevelt (who was Asst Sec of the Navy but never was active duty).

Even President Lincoln’s participation in the Black Hawk War is dubious as to whether it would count – it was a private Illinois militia of which he was a part for less than 80 days. When Pres Lincoln spoke of that time, which was rare, he mentioned it sardonically (to put it diplomatically) as he did not see military service as a prerequisite to the Presidency:

“By the way, Mr. Speaker, did you know I am a military hero? Yes, sir; in the days of the Black Hawk War I fought, bled, and came away. Speaking of General Cass’s [then-US Rep Lincoln strongly supported the Whig candidate, General Zachary Taylor, in the 1948 election and was mocking Taylor’s Democratic Presidential challenger, General Lewis Cass, who did have a robust active duty military career like Taylor - nerdgirl] career reminds me of my own. I was not at Stillman’s defeat, but I was about as near it as Cass was to Hull’s surrender; and, like him, I saw the place very soon afterward. It is quite certain I did not break my sword, for I had none to break; but I bent a musket pretty badly on one occasion…I bent the musket by accident. If General Cass went in advance of me in picking huckleberries, I guess I surpassed him in charges upon the wild onions. If he saw any live, fighting Indians, it was more than I did; but I had a good many bloody struggles with mosquitoes, and although I never fainted from the loss of blood, I can truly say I was very often hungry.”(Speech in the United States House of Representatives on the Presidential Question, July 27, 1848)

Part of strength of the US nation is the civilian led military. The military – at the highest level – exists to protect the execution of the Constitution and to protect the people, land, and non-tangibles to whom/to which the Constitution applies.

The proposal is also fundamentally undemocratic.

In today’s world, one might make an argument that a requirement for Peace Corps or AmeriCorps service would be just as valid if not more so. Nonetheless that would be equally undemocratic.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[dgskydive 0]

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Meaning, that the only way you'd vote for these women is if they had been a nurse. Were there any other eligible military roles for women in the 50s, 60s, even 70s? Even fast forwarding to now, there are limits on the opportunity for women soldiers.

Are you intentionally not reading what I said? I NEVER said they had to be a nurse. I simply used that as an example. I never said that they had to have any specific job what so ever. Not sure why you are caught up on a certain occupation.

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So if there's no war, they should waste a couple years for no real gain? And if there's no war, what lessons on the seriousness of conflict will they learn?

I guess that is a difference of opinion. I dont see it as a waste of time. Even if there is no actual conflict, they will get a lot from the experience. Not trying to knock those that havent served, but if you had served you would know what I mean. It is like joining a brotherhood.

Before I ever went off and got shot at, I knew what war could do to people. Kind of hard not to when you see older soliders walking around post with severe burns from phosphorus grenades that look like someone scooped the back of their neck out. Things like that open your eyes real quick. Sure you can watch a movie or something on History channel and see what war can do. But until you know the people that these things happened and then realize that it really could be you, or the new nest friend that you have just spend 6 months training with. It is not the same.

Dom

[nerdgirl 0]

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I underlined and put in bold the statement I was responding to. He made no mention of any R&D, only that "Those who are able to do these things are wasted as infantrymen". That's what he wrote, must be what he meant.

The way I read/interpreted the statement ... which may or may not reflect [kallend]'s intention ... was "do" not as use or employ, but "do" as the original innovative fundamental scientific research and the subsequent development of the technology including the military operations-specific development, testing, and evaluation.

If the technologies (or "capabilities" in DoD-speak) intended for infantry or field operations use are not able to be transitioned to the military operator ultimately, they do not serve the mission.

Guess it depends on what "do" means, eh?
/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[nerdgirl 0]

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Even if there is no actual conflict, they will get a lot from the experience. Not trying to knock those that havent served, but if you had served you would know what I mean. It is like joining a brotherhood.

That is exactly what you are doing, however.

You proposed a requirement for the leader of the nation-state that explicitly creates a two-tiered society of those who are better in your opinion ("best" was the word you used, IIRC; please correct me if that is incorrect or does not reflect your proposal accurately) because they have been a member of the uniformed services and a lesser class who have not.

You are knocking those who haven't participated in one group with whom you strongly identify.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[dgskydive 0]

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Do you realize that if your advocacy had been followed the US would not have had a number of Presidents … some that perhaps were not among the best, such as President van Buren and President Cleveland … but you also sacrifice some of he best President Jefferson, President John Adams, President James Madison, President Woodrow Wilson, President Franklin Roosevelt (who was Asst Sec of the Navy but never was active duty).

Again. I stand by my belief.

Times are different now. Back then, if and when we went to war. I think that it was actually in the defense of our country and to establish our way of life.

These days, we go to war more to impose our beliefs on others and to protect corporate and political interests.

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Part of strength of the US nation is the civilian led military. The military – at the highest level – exists to protect the execution of the Constitution and to protect the people, land, and non-tangibles to whom/to which the Constitution applies.

The military is one of our strengths. To bad the current civilians that run our Govt are one of our biggest weaknesses.

Dom

[nerdgirl 0]

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To bad the current civilians that run our Govt are one of our biggest weaknesses.

Do you realize that a lot of those civilians who you cite as "our biggest weaknesses" are retired or former military?

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[dgskydive 0]

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You proposed a requirement for the leader of the nation-state that explicitly creates a two-tiered society of those who are better in your opinion ("best" was the word you used, IIRC; please correct me if that is incorrect or does not reflect your proposal accurately) because they have been a member of the uniformed services and a lesser class who have not.

Its like any other job. You take the BEST qualified and to me and I believe many other Americans. They person best qualified for the job should have experience in all aspects of that job. No 2nd or lower class is created. If you want to be president, then serve your country first.

I do strongly relate to people in the military and also know that just because a person serves in the military does not make them better then the next person. In fact a lot of people join because that is the only life they are fit for. But those that would aspire to be President would be better prepared for the job and fully understand the gravity of what they are doing by sending someone to war. I do think there would be less fighting as a result.

Dom

[dgskydive 0]

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you realize that a lot of those civilians who you cite as "our biggest weaknesses" are retired or former military?

Your right, maybe that wasnt the best way to put that. I should have said the CINC.

HE in fact is a deserter and should have done jail time.

Dom

[kallend 2,147]

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And as Kallend has pointed out, our national interests were much better served letting the scientists on the Manhattan Project build the bomb.

That's just the best known and most obvious example. Others include radar, sonar, navigation aids, aerodynamics, engine technology, ballistics, fuel technology, electronics, metallurgy, codebreaking...

Those who are able to do these things are wasted as infantrymen.

So you would have an infantry that was not able to understand or even operate radar, sonar, navigation aids, fuel management systems, or codebreaking equipment? Not able to understand or use basic engineering concepts?
Sounds like a giant step backward and a good way to get a lot of men killed.

Do you bother to read threads, or are you another one who just kneejerks and then hits "Post"?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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[Andrewwhyte 1]

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Do you bother to read threads, or are you another one who just kneejerks and then hits "Post"?

Play the ball Doc.

[Amazon 7]

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It usually helps when you actually have PROOF of the claim...still waiting on that 'for the personal gain of his buddies' thing - you'd think after 8 years you could come up with something.

KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK

Have you been keeping up with the news????

[mnealtx 0]

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you realize that a lot of those civilians who you cite as "our biggest weaknesses" are retired or former military?

Your right, maybe that wasnt the best way to put that. I should have said the CINC.

HE in fact is a deserter and should have done jail time.

Yeah, but he wiggle out by being in England.... you *were* talking about Clinton, right?

I'm sure you were, since it's proven fact (from records) that GW *did* complete his military requirements.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

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It usually helps when you actually have PROOF of the claim...still waiting on that 'for the personal gain of his buddies' thing - you'd think after 8 years you could come up with something.

KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK

Have you been keeping up with the news????

No, sorry... I'm not a regular reader of DU and DKOS.

Why, what have they provided as proof?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Amazon 7]

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No, sorry... I'm not a regular reader of DU and DKOS.

Bullshit.. its you who keeps posting links to it...

[Amazon 7]

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I'm sure you were, since it's proven fact (from records) that GW *did* complete his military requirements.

Get the fucking shovel.. its gettin mighty deep


I was on flight status during the 70's. I remember the yearly requirements all too well. It was called a flight physical. Not showing up for a physical for a flight officer.... and getting grounded.... you just gotta ask yourself.. WHY..

I think it was pretty simple... he KNEW he would flunk the golden flow test. Lt CokeHead was partying a LEEETLE BEET too much.

Dopers got separated quite quickly in those days when the golden flow test did not go their way. And they SURE AS HELL did not get Honorable Dischages... let alone be considered to have completed their service.

[mnealtx 0]

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I'm sure you were, since it's proven fact (from records) that GW *did* complete his military requirements.

Get the fucking shovel.. its gettin mighty deep


I was on flight status during the 70's. I remember the yearly requirements all too well. It was called a flight physical. Not showing up for a physical for a flight officer.... and getting grounded.... you just gotta ask yourself.. WHY..

I think it was pretty simple... he KNEW he would flunk the golden flow test. Lt CokeHead was partying a LEEETLE BEET too much.

Ah, yes, your Amazing Karnak routine... with all that 'proof', he wasn't impeached in 2004, why?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[dgskydive 0]

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Yeah, but he wiggle out by being in England.... you *were* talking about Clinton, right?

I'm sure you were, since it's proven fact (from records) that GW *did* complete his military requirements.

Wasnt speaking of Clinton, but he had his issues as well.

I dont care what his (bush) official record says. He went AWOL and did not complete his service. If I or any other service member had pulled the number he did. We would have done time in jail and been labeled a deserter.

Dom