Oh Canada, I'm so sorry

[kallend 2,148]

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They did have a choice - allow the companies to go bankrupt and capitalism to take its course.

The Canadian taxpayer just got screwed.

Capitalism taking its course led to the mess we are in. It also led to Madoff's scheme. And Enron. And Tyco. And Worldcom...

If you are going to lay the few messes at the feet of capitalism, then you also have to give it credit for the tremendous growth and standard of living increase seen in the last couple hundred years.

Every system has it's advantages and disadvantages. We're witnessing one of the occassional bubbles that are bound to happen when capital rules.

Bottom line is that most of the mess can be blamed on human greed.

Which, of course, is the prime driver of capitalism.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[pirana 0]

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I think Mopar is putting out some of the coolest looking cars right now, but I'm not gonna support them.

Buddy of mine just took delivery last week of a top of the line, fully loaded Challenger. Outrageous car. I was used car shopping over Thanksgiving weekend and they had one on the floor (the NASCAR commemorative one with all the goodies). Incredible what they are doing to extract the last bits of power. Each cylinder has it's own coil. I guess distributors are a thing of the past, and tune-ups are pretty much eliminated.

Being in the market for a gently used medium AWD, they wouldn't even let me sit in it.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[pirana 0]

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They did have a choice - allow the companies to go bankrupt and capitalism to take its course.

The Canadian taxpayer just got screwed.

Capitalism taking its course led to the mess we are in. It also led to Madoff's scheme. And Enron. And Tyco. And Worldcom...

If you are going to lay the few messes at the feet of capitalism, then you also have to give it credit for the tremendous growth and standard of living increase seen in the last couple hundred years.

Every system has it's advantages and disadvantages. We're witnessing one of the occassional bubbles that are bound to happen when capital rules.

Bottom line is that most of the mess can be blamed on human greed.

Which, of course, is the prime driver of capitalism.

I disagree. There can be capitalism without greed, and there can be greed without capitalism. To say greed is the driver of capitalism is like saying burnt toast is the driver of having breakfast.

Not every capitalist is possessed by the kind of greed that causes the problems we see today; any more than every cook is so in a hurry that they burn the toast on the way to serving breakfast.

The driving force of capitalism is growth. Sometimes, in a hurry for growth, capitalists create bubbless. Sometimes in a hurry to get done, cooks serve up some real shit. It doesn't mean serving up shit is the primary driver to being a cook.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[livendive 8]

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I can't buy an HD framed Toyota to really use as a truck. No Jap brand makes a true HD truck as I stated earlier. I'm not familiar with the 4-runner being a truck...nor the Camry.
Sure the "suburbian" definition of a truck, yes, true world use by towing something of weight, mounting a dump bed capable of 20,000 lbs, etc...ain't happening.

I've had a number of (ok 5 actually) American trucks go over 300,000 miles with no issues. People need to learn what maintenance is.

You're right, the 4-runner isn't a truck, however it's always been the same engine/tranny/frame as the pickup/Tacoma. It's also true that you can't buy a Toyota 1-ton in America today. However they basically defined the "compact" truck market in the 70's and 80's, and their entrance into the half-ton market in the last couple of years has certainly made a bigger than expected splash. My Tundra will compete nicely with an F-150/1500 series truck by any measure, and it's absolutely more pleasant to drive. It also tows my trailer to and from the DZ with no problems. As for the bigger work trucks (as opposed to the "everyday" half tons), I suspect it's only a matter of time till they get something out there. I won't be upgrading to a 5th wheel until they do.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[normiss 897]

So that's a Hino?
Damn! Thanks for that link - interesting!
That's a truck! It's also nice to see how involved American companies are in the components.
Allison and Eaton sure seem to have managed to make a solid nitch for themselves in the industry.

Think we're making a full circle of manufacturing?
The foreign markets were introduced during gas/oil crisis and we jumped on them for fuel economy, then cost, then reliability.
It looks like these days they're trying to make the vehicles they replaced in the first place! Cost, gas mileage factors at least.
Man do I need a truck...

[livendive 8]

Yep, there's been a bit of an odd circle going on. Not only is Toyota now making the type of cars they replaced, but they're now doing it with an American workforce (while their domestic competitors farm the work out to Canada and Mexico), and somehow doing it more profitably (or less lossibly ) than their competitors.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[BDashe 0]

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it wouldnt be so bad if they actually made a vehicle that people wanted.

there is a reason why toyota, honda, and nissan are some of the top sellers....you would thing the big 3 would take their heads out from their ass and figure this out insted of just asking for a handout

its not rocket science

I'm very happy with my Z06. I will definitely want to buy another one in a couple years I liked my mustang quite a bit too...

So there I was...

Making friends and playing nice since 1983

[BDashe 0]

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I disagree. There can be capitalism without greed, and there can be greed without capitalism. To say greed is the driver of capitalism is like saying burnt toast is the driver of having breakfast.

Not every capitalist is possessed by the kind of greed that causes the problems we see today; any more than every cook is so in a hurry that they burn the toast on the way to serving breakfast.

The driving force of capitalism is growth. Sometimes, in a hurry for growth, capitalists create bubbless. Sometimes in a hurry to get done, cooks serve up some real shit. It doesn't mean serving up shit is the primary driver to being a cook.

+1

a couple poor examples of executives ruin the rep of everyone; then the government passes a bunch of halfwit laws that hinder our system even more. Given all their worldly experience in business of course, being a professional politician means you automatically have the knowledge and experience of a Harvard MBA or equivalent. 'But i took a class on biz ethics in law school!' The media certainly doesn't help even the playing fields. Talk about a bunch of greedy ratings wh*res...

So there I was...

Making friends and playing nice since 1983

[stitch 0]

Well, believe what you want. The primary non-agricultural employer in Twin Falls, Idaho has just layed-off half of their employees because GM and Chysler cancelled their orders with them. I'm visiting my mother right now in Tennessee. 4 auto industry suppliers in the area have either idled their plants or had massive lay-offs because the big 3 cancelled orders. People can't seem to understand that if the big 3 go under, they're going to take all of their suppliers out with them. Then when there's not enough consumers to purchase products in the local economies. The small businesses are going to suffer. I could go on and on . But what's the point.

"No cookies for you"- GFD
"I don't think I like the sound of that" ~ MB65
Don't be a "Racer Hater"

[LaRusic 0]

haha yeah the mustang is bloody sweet, along with a nice gas guzzling camaro...

i was talking more about fuel effient economy cars that the majority of family people look at.

sure its nice to have 500hp V8 but at the end of the day the bigger market is for little weee 4 bangers that get 30-50 mpg

The Altitude above you, the runway behind you, and the fuel not in the plane are totally worthless
Dudeist Skydiver # 10

[LaRusic 0]

you are absolutly right. its not just the car/truck manufacturing plants that will close, all the different companies that supply and make parts for them will close too. about 600 000 jobs ish in ontario....we have a small population and that would be devistating.
another problem is that with the bank rates as low as they are, its really hard to get a new vehicle financed. the banks dont want to lend money.

The Altitude above you, the runway behind you, and the fuel not in the plane are totally worthless
Dudeist Skydiver # 10

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Care to wait 10 years and tell me how that works out?
Ever notice how few OLD Jap vehicles there are on the roads????

Lots. I know more people with Toyotas (including the Hilux pickup and Land Cruisers) and Hondas (like the Accord) which have made it to 150,000-250,000 miles on the first engine than American cars.

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When you need a REAL truck, notice those boys still buy American? There are no HD import pickups.

Most people don't need a big diesel pickup.

[azdiver 0]

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I can't buy an HD framed Toyota to really use as a truck. No Jap brand makes a true HD truck as I stated earlier. I'm not familiar with the 4-runner being a truck...nor the Camry.
Sure the "suburbian" definition of a truck, yes, true world use by towing something of weight, mounting a dump bed capable of 20,000 lbs, etc...ain't happening.

I've had a number of (ok 5 actually) American trucks go over 300,000 miles with no issues. People need to learn what maintenance is.

i have a 95 2500 w/454 big block w/hd rear end, has 498,201 miles besides usual maintenance had 1 fuel pump , master cylinder , 2 alternators ,and an a/c ( az kills ac's). only problem with having it is at 8 mpg's it kills your wallet. luckily i have a new 1500 . Others that i work with have tundras, and in my opinion aint holding up as well compared to gm ford or dodge

light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak

[BDashe 0]

yeah, i was being a smart@$$. I'm young and single so I figured I'd get a car to match. i do get close to 30 MPGs on the freeway! and to 60 mph in under 4 seconds... vroom vroom.

Buy american when we need it most, f*ck the government's decisions whether you guys agree or not, boycotting the manufacturers certainly does not help the stimulate the economy. There are threads on here with the same people b*tching about jobs going overseas... Think with your heads, big picture stuff you know.

So there I was...

Making friends and playing nice since 1983

[livendive 8]

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yeah, i was being a smart@$$. I'm young and single so I figured I'd get a car to match. i do get close to 30 MPGs on the freeway! and to 60 mph in under 4 seconds... vroom vroom.

Buy american when we need it most, f*ck the government's decisions whether you guys agree or not, boycotting the manufacturers certainly does not help the stimulate the economy. There are threads on here with the same people b*tching about jobs going overseas... Think with your heads, big picture stuff you know.

I don't do charity fucks. If the Big 3 want me to buy their vehicles, they should build vehicles I want to buy. It's called capitalism, and like most things, it breaks down when you reward poor performance.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[kallend 2,148]

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They did have a choice - allow the companies to go bankrupt and capitalism to take its course.

The Canadian taxpayer just got screwed.

Capitalism taking its course led to the mess we are in. It also led to Madoff's scheme. And Enron. And Tyco. And Worldcom...

If you are going to lay the few messes at the feet of capitalism, then you also have to give it credit for the tremendous growth and standard of living increase seen in the last couple hundred years.

Every system has it's advantages and disadvantages. We're witnessing one of the occassional bubbles that are bound to happen when capital rules.

Bottom line is that most of the mess can be blamed on human greed.

Which, of course, is the prime driver of capitalism.

I disagree. There can be capitalism without greed, and there can be greed without capitalism. To say greed is the driver of capitalism is like saying burnt toast is the driver of having breakfast.

Not every capitalist is possessed by the kind of greed that causes the problems we see today; any more than every cook is so in a hurry that they burn the toast on the way to serving breakfast.

The driving force of capitalism is growth. Sometimes, in a hurry for growth, capitalists create bubbless. Sometimes in a hurry to get done, cooks serve up some real shit. It doesn't mean serving up shit is the primary driver to being a cook.

Well, I disagree with you. Hunger drives cooks like greed drives capitalists. In extreme cases, the greed drives them to criminal activities like Enron, Madoff, Tyco, Worldcom, or to "default credit swaps" which bring down the entire economy. We are in the worst recession in most people's memories thanks to GREED.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[BDashe 0]

agreed, but you're not the american i was speaking to. I am referring to the "i'm not gonna buy your sh*t out of spite, so f*ck my country" Granted we have every right to do that, which is the catch 22 of our beautiful system! I will defend to the death your right to disagree!

So there I was...

Making friends and playing nice since 1983

[BDashe 0]

I disagree emphatically to executive greed (except in cited examples), and agree to joe blow american greed. Let's run ourselves up to our ears in debt, default on loans on sh*t we can't afford, and then blame the rich guys for our failures. Isn't america great that we can do that? It's like the holocaust or rwandan genocide, just without that whole decimation thing...

So there I was...

Making friends and playing nice since 1983

[billvon 3,116]

>I disagree. There can be capitalism without greed, and there can be
> greed without capitalism.

There can be greed without capitalism; the USSR proved that. There cannot be capitalism without greed any more than there can be charity without altruism.

>Not every capitalist is possessed by the kind of greed that causes the
>problems we see today . . .

You are correct! Stupid greed (i.e. the shortsighted and selfish sort) is counterproductive.

>The driving force of capitalism is growth.

Not really. Someone can grow a tree without being a capitalist, and if at the end of his life only has a tall tree, is not a capitalist. Likewise, someone can sell all of his holdings in Enron and buy a huge, worthless tract of Alaska. He's not necessarily a capitalist, although he may be a failed one if he was trying to make money on the deal. A capitalist attempts to produce, improve and exchange products (food, software, real estate) for profit, usually money.

If someone does a lot of business, and loses money on every transaction until he is broke, he is not a capitalist, and is removed from the market by normal capitalistic forces - whether or not he "grows." Someone who desires profit, and manages to profit on all his transactions, is a capitalist who has managed to make his greed work for him.

You may be hung up on the idea that greed (i.e. the desire for material wealth for oneself or one's organization) is inherently a bad thing. It's not. It's what drives many people to go to school, get a good job and work hard. It's excessive, shortsighted and counterproductive greed that got us into this, and indeed that sort of greed ends up failing at enriching people. The "good" sort of greed gets us Intel, Microsoft and Apple; the bad sort gets us Enron and Worldcom.

[BDashe 0]

Mmmmm, I think you're bending the term 'greed' pretty far and taking it out of context to make your argument here. We can give our own interpretations to any word in the dictionary to make it prove our points. The general population feels greed falls along the following couple definitions i dug up:

excessive or rapacious desire, esp. for wealth or possessions.

the self-serving desire for the pursuit of money, wealth, power, food, or other possessions, especially when this denies the same goods to others.

And for all the religious nuts out there, isn't it one of the 7 DEADLY sins?

def of capitalism:

an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations, esp. as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned means of wealth.

'It's what drives many people to go to school, get a good job and work hard.' THAT, my friend, sounds like capitalism at its finest. Not greed. And to me, a tall tree from a seed is a hell of a lot of growth- Google or walmart may be a great example there. So IMHO, you can have capitalism w/o greed. There will always be a few out there that ruin it by being greedy, it's a matter of opinion when an individual has crossed the line into greed and left capitalism on the side of the road a few miles back.

It is entirely possible to become a billionaire very ethically and not be greedy...

So there I was...

Making friends and playing nice since 1983

[billvon 3,116]

>It is entirely possible to become a billionaire very ethically and not be
>greedy...

It is quite possible to become a billionaire ethically. It is not possible to become a billionaire (outside of inheriting it all or something) without an excessive desire for wealth. Someone who did not desire such wealth would spend his time doing other things (like, say, skydiving.)

I think you are putting too much bad connotation on the word "greed." A man who wants a higher paying job than he needs to meet the needs of him and his family is greedy. That's not necessarily bad - any more than being a glutton in a world with plenty of food is bad.

[BDashe 0]

I still maintain you are using an innaccurate definition of greed and you're using your own interpretation that is not commonly accepted- if ever- as a definition of greed. The word DOES have a negative connotation as does gluttony.

Michael Phelps eats like 12-15,000 calories a day, would you consider him a glutton?

Everyone needs to eat, if someone prefers to eat lobster and steak, but not skydive, go fishing, play with cars, are they gluttons? Greed and gluttony describe excessive abuse strictly for the sake of excess.


I know a couple millionaires that created their own companies and sold em, all the while kept up a steady skydiving regimen, or sailing routine, even restoring cars. It is possible and common to have both the things you love and money without being greedy.

The desire to be successful has nothing to do with being greedy. More often than not, the money comes with being a success, especially in the business world. Now if the driving factor for someone's succcess is strictly owning the most toys and having the most money, he/she could be considered greedy. If that person isn't harming anyone, who the f*ck cares anyway though? It's the outliers like a few of the enron guys that screw it up for the vast majority of executives and give capitalism, big business, and sr. execs a bad name.

You'll be hard pressed to find CEOs that do it just for the money and make decisions based solely on their own personal gain by throwing people under the bus. CEO's generally have a winner's mentality, they want to be the best and provide the best, the money is just an added bonus... again, for the vast majority.

So there I was...

Making friends and playing nice since 1983

[FreeflyChile 0]

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>It is entirely possible to become a billionaire very ethically and not be
>greedy...

It is quite possible to become a billionaire ethically. It is not possible to become a billionaire (outside of inheriting it all or something) without an excessive desire for wealth. Someone who did not desire such wealth would spend his time doing other things (like, say, skydiving.)

I think you are putting too much bad connotation on the word "greed." A man who wants a higher paying job than he needs to meet the needs of him and his family is greedy. That's not necessarily bad - any more than being a glutton in a world with plenty of food is bad.

Bill...I am curious as to what you define as 'an excessive desire for wealth'. Is selling something for market value demonstrating 'an excessive desire for wealth'? If you invent something that is revolutionary for other than monetary reasons (solving a problem, just pops into your head as a product of experience in a field, etc) and the invention is worth billions - and you take the first offer you get without 'trying' to get more - is that excessive desire for wealth? I'd say the fact you're selling shows an interest in making a profit on your design even if it was accidental - i don't know i'd call it excessive.

Or is that the 'or something' catch-all?

[pirana 0]

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>I disagree. There can be capitalism without greed, and there can be
> greed without capitalism.

There can be greed without capitalism; the USSR proved that. There cannot be capitalism without greed any more than there can be charity without altruism.

>Not every capitalist is possessed by the kind of greed that causes the
>problems we see today . . .

You are correct! Stupid greed (i.e. the shortsighted and selfish sort) is counterproductive.

>The driving force of capitalism is growth.

Not really. Someone can grow a tree without being a capitalist, and if at the end of his life only has a tall tree, is not a capitalist. Likewise, someone can sell all of his holdings in Enron and buy a huge, worthless tract of Alaska. He's not necessarily a capitalist, although he may be a failed one if he was trying to make money on the deal. A capitalist attempts to produce, improve and exchange products (food, software, real estate) for profit, usually money.

If someone does a lot of business, and loses money on every transaction until he is broke, he is not a capitalist, and is removed from the market by normal capitalistic forces - whether or not he "grows." Someone who desires profit, and manages to profit on all his transactions, is a capitalist who has managed to make his greed work for him.

You may be hung up on the idea that greed (i.e. the desire for material wealth for oneself or one's organization) is inherently a bad thing. It's not. It's what drives many people to go to school, get a good job and work hard. It's excessive, shortsighted and counterproductive greed that got us into this, and indeed that sort of greed ends up failing at enriching people. The "good" sort of greed gets us Intel, Microsoft and Apple; the bad sort gets us Enron and Worldcom.

I do not think greed is inherently evil, you lost me on the tree thing, but just to stay on topic; I'm going to disagree:

I have never witnessed or heard of any behavior that struck me as purely altruistic.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[marks2065 0]

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Yep, there's been a bit of an odd circle going on. Not only is Toyota now making the type of cars they replaced, but they're now doing it with an American workforce (while their domestic competitors farm the work out to Canada and Mexico), and somehow doing it more profitably (or less lossibly ) than their competitors.

Blues,
Dave

makes it alot easier when you don't have to deal with the union.