If you support use of torture, you support al Qa’eda’s “greatest recruiting tool”
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nerdgirl, in Speakers Corner
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Quoteif used properly torture can be an effective to to obtain a desired goal.
You keep making statements like this, and then not supporting them. Please post references.
The experts in the field of interrogation seem to concur that torture doesn't work.
If you have other sources, post them. Let's see something of substance to back up your beliefs.
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QuoteExactly. So that's why we can eliminate torture, since, as shown before, it will NOT help us achieve that goal, and will in fact HINDER us from achieving that goal.QuoteQuoteQuoteOn this we agree, but I would not limit my options on how to reach these goals.
The goal is winning the war and leaving a stable country in place. To do anything that does not further the achievent of that goal is counter-productive and self defeating.
so would eliminating anything that could help you achieve that goal
it becomes a tool agaist us for terrorists only because we let it become a tool, to many bleeding hearts and vocal people against torture, and spreading it all over the news gives the terrorists something to use against us in the media, and that is what they use to recruit new terrorists.
kallend 2,146
QuoteQuoteExactly. So that's why we can eliminate torture, since, as shown before, it will NOT help us achieve that goal, and will in fact HINDER us from achieving that goal.QuoteQuoteQuoteOn this we agree, but I would not limit my options on how to reach these goals.
The goal is winning the war and leaving a stable country in place. To do anything that does not further the achievent of that goal is counter-productive and self defeating.
so would eliminating anything that could help you achieve that goal
it becomes a tool agaist us for terrorists only because we let it become a tool, to many bleeding hearts and vocal people against torture, and spreading it all over the news gives the terrorists something to use against us in the media, and that is what they use to recruit new terrorists.
Mark, all the experts agree that torture is NOT effective. If you have any real evidence to the contrary, please post it. Your opinion does not count as evidence.
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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
QuoteQuoteif used properly torture can be an effective to to obtain a desired goal.
You keep making statements like this, and then not supporting them. Please post references.
The experts in the field of interrogation seem to concur that torture doesn't work.
If you have other sources, post them. Let's see something of substance to back up your beliefs.
there are no sources that say torture has never been an effective tool only on cases that have been studied say torture is not effective. until you study all cases the truth will not be known.
Amazon 7
QuoteWhat did you see, read, &/or experience that leads you to believe that the information gained at that point will be accurate?
What would Jack Baur do?
I'm not asking for every case.
Experts in the field of interrogation say that torture doesn't work.
If you believe that some experts say that torture DOES work, post it.
Let's see something of substance instead of just vague notions.
Experts in the field of interrogation say that torture doesn't work.
If you believe that some experts say that torture DOES work, post it.
Let's see something of substance instead of just vague notions.
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jakee 1,593
QuoteQuoteQuoteif used properly torture can be an effective to to obtain a desired goal.
You keep making statements like this, and then not supporting them. Please post references.
The experts in the field of interrogation seem to concur that torture doesn't work.
If you have other sources, post them. Let's see something of substance to back up your beliefs.
there are no sources that say torture has never been an effective tool only on cases that have been studied say torture is not effective. until you study all cases the truth will not be known.
Can you provide any instances where torture has been effective and reliable at gaining intelligence?
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
billvon 3,107
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>there are no sources that say torture has never been an effective tool
There are no sources that say that witchcraft has never been an effective tool to fight terrorism, either. That's a bad reason to hire witches instead of soldiers.
There are no sources that say that witchcraft has never been an effective tool to fight terrorism, either. That's a bad reason to hire witches instead of soldiers.
skydyvr 0
QuoteI'm genuinely asking because I can't figure out how with all the information out there showing torture is (1) ineffective; (2) increases risk to US uniformed service members, deployed civilians, and overseas Americans; and (3) is counter to US strategic interests and makes implementing & executing actions in support of US strategic interests more difficult; why anyone would still support it? I just don't get it.
Does there not remain a basic tendency to enjoy torture in the hearts of some? Especially when you can hear about it or see pictures, while not getting the soul tarnished by actually doing it? Was it not just short centuries ago when all sorts of slow excruciating torture took place in the open? Still happening today in some cultures (the US being the fringe member of that group).
. . =(_8^(1)
QuoteQuoteQuoteExactly. So that's why we can eliminate torture, since, as shown before, it will NOT help us achieve that goal, and will in fact HINDER us from achieving that goal.QuoteQuoteQuoteOn this we agree, but I would not limit my options on how to reach these goals.
The goal is winning the war and leaving a stable country in place. To do anything that does not further the achievent of that goal is counter-productive and self defeating.
so would eliminating anything that could help you achieve that goal
it becomes a tool agaist us for terrorists only because we let it become a tool, to many bleeding hearts and vocal people against torture, and spreading it all over the news gives the terrorists something to use against us in the media, and that is what they use to recruit new terrorists.
Mark, all the experts agree that torture is NOT effective. If you have any real evidence to the contrary, please post it. Your opinion does not count as evidence.
Show me were torture has NEVER been an effective means of extracting information. Are there other methods to get information, yes, but no means are completely effective or completely ineffective, therefore in some cases it can be used to gain information when other means have failed.
why should an inferior technique be used in place of a superior technique?
Why shouldn't we listen to the advice of experts in the field of interrogation?
Don't they know more than you or I do about what works & what doesn't?
Why shouldn't we listen to the advice of experts in the field of interrogation?
Don't they know more than you or I do about what works & what doesn't?
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fasted3 0
Can you provide any instances where torture has been effective and reliable at gaining intelligence?
Come on people. Do you need to read it in a book that torture has ever in the history of mankind been used to extract useful information?
Yes, it may be unreliable, and is morally reprehensable, but I don't doubt that it has been effective at times. Ask the Mafia; ask the NAZIs; what about the CIA? They won't tell you, but what do you think?
There are plenty of reasons to condemn torture, but saying it has never worked is unrealistic.
I am against it because it is not worth it, among other reasons.
But what do I know?
kallend 2,146
Quote
Can you provide any instances where torture has been effective and reliable at gaining intelligence?
Come on people. Do you need to read it in a book that torture has ever in the history of mankind been used to extract useful information?
Yes, it may be unreliable, and is morally reprehensable, but I don't doubt that it has been effective at times. Ask the Mafia; ask the NAZIs; what about the CIA? They won't tell you, but what do you think?
There are plenty of reasons to condemn torture, but saying it has never worked is unrealistic.
I am against it because it is not worth it, among other reasons.
An unreliable technique is no better than no technique at all. MAYBE the information you get is good, MAYBE it isn't.
And then it sets our own people up to be tortured by our enemies.
Which, no doubt, is why the folks in the military don't want it.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
billvon 3,107
>Do you need to read it in a book that torture has ever in the history of
>mankind been used to extract useful information?
But once again - witchcraft has, at times, been useful to its practitioners. Historically, curses have been used to good effect, and have been used to destroy crops, make livestock ill, sicken people etc. Many witches have been arrested and prosecuted in courts of law for performing witchcraft, thus proving that a demonstrable effect (good or bad) had occurred.
That's still a bad argument for replacing soldiers with witches.
>mankind been used to extract useful information?
But once again - witchcraft has, at times, been useful to its practitioners. Historically, curses have been used to good effect, and have been used to destroy crops, make livestock ill, sicken people etc. Many witches have been arrested and prosecuted in courts of law for performing witchcraft, thus proving that a demonstrable effect (good or bad) had occurred.
That's still a bad argument for replacing soldiers with witches.
kallend 2,146
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteExactly. So that's why we can eliminate torture, since, as shown before, it will NOT help us achieve that goal, and will in fact HINDER us from achieving that goal.QuoteQuoteQuoteOn this we agree, but I would not limit my options on how to reach these goals.
The goal is winning the war and leaving a stable country in place. To do anything that does not further the achievent of that goal is counter-productive and self defeating.
so would eliminating anything that could help you achieve that goal
it becomes a tool agaist us for terrorists only because we let it become a tool, to many bleeding hearts and vocal people against torture, and spreading it all over the news gives the terrorists something to use against us in the media, and that is what they use to recruit new terrorists.
Mark, all the experts agree that torture is NOT effective. If you have any real evidence to the contrary, please post it. Your opinion does not count as evidence.
Show me were torture has NEVER been an effective means of extracting information. Are there other methods to get information, yes, but no means are completely effective or completely ineffective, therefore in some cases it can be used to gain information when other means have failed.
Of course, said "information" may be totally bogus and lead you into trap.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
jakee 1,593
QuoteShow me were torture has NEVER been an effective means of extracting information. Are there other methods to get information, yes, but no means are completely effective or completely ineffective, therefore in some cases it can be used to gain information when other means have failed.
This is ridiculous. Surely you can't be this bad at understanding the arguments?
Every study that has been provided here (though I'm sure you haven't read any of them) shows that torture gives unreliable information. Do you get what that means? If you do, you'll realise that when you torture someone you'll probably get a lot of information from them, but that much of that information will very likely be false. False intel is not just useless, it is actively counterproductive.
Classical interrogation provides much better, much more reliable information than torture. What possible reason could you have for wanting to keep an inferior method that doesn't work and makes people hate us as a backup to a superior method which works and which does not make people hate us.
It is painfully obvious that you are working off what you feel should be true, but that you have absolutely no evidence to back that feeling up. Unfortunately it is also obvious that you realise this but simply don't care.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
Interrogations may involve torture, which various human rights organizations claimed to be ineffective at producing accurate information, but is effective in getting false confessions which might be useful for political reasons for the officer and organization in question by raising the number of successful investigations. However, some argue that one of the reasons torture endures is that torture does indeed work in some instance to extract information/confession, if those who are being tortured are indeed guilty and provide details of crime/plot only the guilty party could produce. Richard Posner, a highly influential judge on the United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit, further argues that "If torture is the only means of obtaining the information necessary to prevent the detonation of a nuclear bomb in Times Square, torture should be used—and will be used—to obtain the information. ... no one who doubts that this is the case should be in a position of responsibility."[
Born ok 1st time.
That's a pretty big "IF".QuoteIf torture is the only means of obtaining the information
Experts in the field of interrogation are saying that that particular "IF" is not the reality.
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jakee 1,593
QuoteHowever, some argue that one of the reasons torture endures is that torture does indeed work in some instance to extract information/confession, if those who are being tortured are indeed guilty and provide details of crime/plot only the guilty party could produce.
Ah, the good old "some say." Who says? What evidence do they provide?
QuoteRichard Posner, a highly influential judge on the United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit, further argues that "If torture is the only means of obtaining the information necessary to prevent the detonation of a nuclear bomb in Times Square, torture should be used—and will be used—to obtain the information. ... no one who doubts that this is the case should be in a position of responsibility."
Here's something you would realise if you had paid any attention to this thread - not only is torture not the only means to gain that information, it is demonstrably inferior to other means.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
Also, Posner is a judge, not an interrogator.
The main reason things got so fucked up in Iraq was that our leaders would not listen to the military experts in the field, especially when they told them things they didn't want to hear.
Experienced interrogators seem to be saying that torture is a bad idea. Why not listen to them?
The main reason things got so fucked up in Iraq was that our leaders would not listen to the military experts in the field, especially when they told them things they didn't want to hear.
Experienced interrogators seem to be saying that torture is a bad idea. Why not listen to them?
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billvon 3,107
>"If torture is the only means of obtaining the information necessary to
>prevent the detonation of a nuclear bomb in Times Square, torture
>should be used—and will be used—to obtain the information. ... no one
> who doubts that this is the case should be in a position of responsibility."
But again - replace the word 'torture' with 'witchcraft' and that statement is just as accurate, and just as misleading.
>prevent the detonation of a nuclear bomb in Times Square, torture
>should be used—and will be used—to obtain the information. ... no one
> who doubts that this is the case should be in a position of responsibility."
But again - replace the word 'torture' with 'witchcraft' and that statement is just as accurate, and just as misleading.
But we could turn all the terrorists into newts.
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