If you support use of torture, you support al Qa’eda’s “greatest recruiting tool”

[marks2065 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

That is why I put in the part about psychological testing and oversight... remove the idiots who get off on their power.. rather than doing an already difficult job.

I wonder what this world would be like if we put the attention, time and money on defending the rights and taking care of the victims of crimes. Why do we waste resources on the guilty?

Weather the crime was local of foriegn makes no difference, and resources should be spent on defending the victims and nothing spared to achieve what is needed to make this world safe for those that have been victimized. we waste billions a year to defend criminals and murderers and very little to take care of the people that have endured the tortures put on them by the agressors.

If torture saves the lives of american soldiers or people in the streets then i am for it.

And since it's been PROVEN not to do that, what are you for?

no it is proven it doesn't work in ALL cases, but unless someone has proof that torture has never worked then i would have to say in some cases it does work and will sometimes save lives.

But when it doesn't work you get false information and that loses lives, and you don't know which is which. Your position is completely untenable from a praactical viewpoint as well as being immoral and illegal.

show me valid evidence proving your point, there is non because most is done with the publics knowledge and therefore any stats you might have would be misleading.

[SpeedRacer 1]

Quote

show me valid evidence proving your point

How about YOU showing some valid evidence proving that torture is effective?

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[marks2065 0]

Quote

Quote

no it is proven it doesn't work in ALL cases, but unless someone has proof that torture has never worked then i would have to say in some cases it does work and will sometimes save lives.

Please post data to support your statement.

no nobody can prove either way, unless you can show documentation of every torture case that has ever been done. just because some cases have been documented doesn't mean that all torture is useless. I feel if done under the right situation at the right time it does work to a degree that could have positive outcomes.

[marks2065 0]

Quote

Quote

show me valid evidence proving your point

How about YOU showing some valid evidence proving that torture is effective?

soory but last I heard my scurity level clearance for russia, china, india, and other countries was not high enough to be able to gather that information.

[nerdgirl 0]

Quote

Quote

Or is there some reason that you want to be 'for torture'?

He voted for Bush.

That may be the case ... & it may be relevent or may not be relevent. There are a lot of people who voted for President GW Bush who oppose torture.

The partisan explanation doesn't advance my understanding of the thought process that supports torture. And frankly in this forum, that's my selfish motive.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[Amazon 7]

Quote

I wonder what this world would be like if we put the attention, time and money on defending the rights and taking care of the victims of crimes. Why do we waste resources on the guilty?

Weather the crime was local of foriegn makes no difference, and resources should be spent on defending the victims and nothing spared to achieve what is needed to make this world safe for those that have been victimized. we waste billions a year to defend criminals and murderers and very little to take care of the people that have endured the tortures put on them by the agressors.

If torture saves the lives of american soldiers or people in the streets then i am for it.

Are you a victim??


You looking for a handout to relive your personal suffering???


WE waste all that time on the guilty for a reason.. HOPEFULLY to prevent them from being among us to re-offend.


We spend VAST SUMS of money on weapons systems to protect us.... that did not protect us on 9/11 now did it. I guess in your parlance we wasted billions to defend against those criminals and murderers and very little on the programs to make our own citizens more educated and healthier to cope with the world. Most of the people that died that day did so fairly quickly... Quite a few of your fellow countrymen and women die slow deaths due to lousy health care... Lousy educations.... and the piss poor attitudes of those who have made it... the I got mine.. and fuck all the rest of you attitude. Many of them will never be able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.. because they AINT GOT THE BOOTS.

SO instead we build more prisons ... which turn low level criminals into more knowledgeable nasty repeat and lifelong offenders. Having a bunch of sadists running our prisons... or sadists running the torture chambers accomplishes one thing... more virulent criminals.. and more determined insurgents/terrorists. They go hand in hand. Very few people who are treated well tend to turn to violence . Perhaps there is a lesson to be learned... but it seems too few want to learn from past mistakes.

[nerdgirl 0]

Quote

I feel if done under the right situation at the right time it does work to a degree that could have positive outcomes.

How did you get to this opinion?

What did you see, read, &/or experience that prompted that conclusion?

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[SpeedRacer 1]

Quote

Quote

Quote

show me valid evidence proving your point

How about YOU showing some valid evidence proving that torture is effective?

soory but last I heard my scurity level clearance for russia, china, india, and other countries was not high enough to be able to gather that information.

You don't need security clearance to find literature regarding interrogation techniques. Nerdgirl has posted studies showing torture doesn't work.

That's all I'm asking. Post some link to an article that shows that torture is a more effective technique for acquiring information from prisoners.

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[Amazon 7]

Quote

You don't need security clearance to find literature regarding interrogation techniques. Nerdgirl has posted studies showing torture doesn't work.

That's all I'm asking. Post some link to an article that shows that torture is a more effective technique for acquiring information from prisoners.

Trust me when I say.. that physical torture is far easier to resist than is psycological teqchniques for getting valid information. You can kick the shit out of someone and take them to within an inch of killing them.... and they will give you anything.. wild and fancifull to make the pain stop. Torturers usually are not there to get information in so much as getting their little stiffies from their power trip.. their power over another human being. It sickens me that those are the kind of sadistic bastards employed by us in the guise of "interrogators" today

[marks2065 0]

Quote

Quote

I wonder what this world would be like if we put the attention, time and money on defending the rights and taking care of the victims of crimes. Why do we waste resources on the guilty?

Weather the crime was local of foriegn makes no difference, and resources should be spent on defending the victims and nothing spared to achieve what is needed to make this world safe for those that have been victimized. we waste billions a year to defend criminals and murderers and very little to take care of the people that have endured the tortures put on them by the agressors.

If torture saves the lives of american soldiers or people in the streets then i am for it.

Are you a victim??


You looking for a handout to relive your personal suffering???


WE waste all that time on the guilty for a reason.. HOPEFULLY to prevent them from being among us to re-offend.


We spend VAST SUMS of money on weapons systems to protect us.... that did not protect us on 9/11 now did it. I guess in your parlance we wasted billions to defend against those criminals and murderers and very little on the programs to make our own citizens more educated and healthier to cope with the world. Most of the people that died that day did so fairly quickly... Quite a few of your fellow countrymen and women die slow deaths due to lousy health care... Lousy educations.... and the piss poor attitudes of those who have made it... the I got mine.. and fuck all the rest of you attitude. Many of them will never be able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.. because they AINT GOT THE BOOTS.

SO instead we build more prisons ... which turn low level criminals into more knowledgeable nasty repeat and lifelong offenders. Having a bunch of sadists running our prisons... or sadists running the torture chambers accomplishes one thing... more virulent criminals.. and more determined insurgents/terrorists. They go hand in hand. Very few people who are treated well tend to turn to violence . Perhaps there is a lesson to be learned... but it seems too few want to learn from past mistakes.

people commit crimes because they are not afraid of the consequences of their actions, if we stopped turning prisons into summer camps we wouldn't have as much crime. we need to stop spending money on prisons and start putting that money in the treatment and help of the people that suffered from the treatment of the criminals.

[champu 1]

Quote

And we all know how stubborn a brain washed religious nut can be...

Quote

"...how did you succeed so well after the initial American victory? He said, ‘Two things’ -- he said, ‘One’ -- he said, ‘there was no control by your troops. It was total lawlessness. There was rape, looting, pillage, murder, settling of old scores. So there was lawlessness.’ ‘Second, the greatest recruiting tool we [al Qa'eda in Iraq] had -- we were able to recruit thousands of young men,’ he said, ‘was Abu Ghraib.’

Unfortunately there's a very large pool of people to brainwash. I'll paraphrase a famous quote, "A fool learns to fight a war by studying tactics; the victor will have studied logistics."

In a conventional war that means you don't butt heads and lose man for man at the front lines, you send in planes and bomb their railroads, factories, and bridges. In the game RISK that means you don't attack the giant pile of canons sitting in Afghanistan and Ural, you attack the three lonely mopes that got left in Kamchatka so that all of Asia isn't controlled at the next turn. In a battle with extremists it means you don't torture them to find out where the next camp is so you can firebomb what turns out to be a village where a few bad guys were hiding, it means you do what it takes to keep "borderline cases" from knocking on the training camp doors to begin with.

[billvon 3,107]

>but unless someone has proof that torture has never worked then i would have
>to say in some cases it does work and will sometimes save lives.

I don't get this. I mean, you could support suicide bombings of markets because it helps the US win the war on terror in the long run. After all, no one has proof that it doesn't.

Does that mean that you support suicide bombers?

[Amazon 7]

Quote

people commit crimes because they are not afraid of the consequences of their actions, if we stopped turning prisons into summer camps we wouldn't have as much crime. we need to stop spending money on prisons and start putting that money in the treatment and help of the people that suffered from the treatment of the criminals.

Ignorance of the problem leads to ignorance of any viable solution.

[marks2065 0]

Quote

>but unless someone has proof that torture has never worked then i would have
>to say in some cases it does work and will sometimes save lives.

I don't get this. I mean, you could support suicide bombings of markets because it helps the US win the war on terror in the long run. After all, no one has proof that it doesn't.

Does that mean that you support suicide bombers?

when did i say i supported killing or torturing innocent people? or even blowing up buildings? if you could prevent a bombing by extracting information from a war prisoner i am ok with that.

[billvon 3,107]

>when did i say i supported killing or torturing innocent people?

You did above. You are apparently OK with the Dilawar episode.

>if you could prevent a bombing by extracting information from a war prisoner i
>am ok with that.

If you could prevent a bombing by shooting a US soldier in the back, would you do it?

[nerdgirl 0]

Quote

I feel if done under the right situation at the right time it does work to a degree that could have positive outcomes.

Quote

if you could prevent a bombing by extracting information from a war prisoner i am ok with that.

How did you get to the opinion that this is a viable method?

What did you see, read, &/or experience that prompted that conclusion?

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[marks2065 0]

Quote

Quote

people commit crimes because they are not afraid of the consequences of their actions, if we stopped turning prisons into summer camps we wouldn't have as much crime. we need to stop spending money on prisons and start putting that money in the treatment and help of the people that suffered from the treatment of the criminals.

Ignorance of the problem leads to ignorance of any viable solution.

if everybody stopped spending all their time and money defending the rights of the offenders and put that on taking care of the innocent people then maybe we could start moving forward.

[Amazon 7]

Quote

people commit crimes because they are not afraid of the consequences of their actions, if we stopped turning prisons into summer camps we wouldn't have as much crime. we need to stop spending money on prisons and start putting that money in the treatment and help of the people that suffered from the treatment of the criminals.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Ignorance of the problem leads to ignorance of any viable solution.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


if everybody stopped spending all their time and money defending the rights of the offenders and put that on taking care of the innocent people then maybe we could start moving forward.

You really do not equate any of the prisons in this country as summer camps do you.

Right wing candidates almost always campaign on LAW AND ORDER platforms... are you saying they are not doing what you want when you elect them over and over and they build more and more prisons???

Perish the thought./

More criminals.. more prisons.. seems to make sense... yet here you are wanting to spend yet more money on victims??

I thought we were spending the money to PREVENT having more victims... BUT.. just like what we are doing overseas... our prisons are making MORE criminals.

Now back to the THREAD.. we are doing the same over there turning more civilians.. into insurgents.. or as you like to call them terrorists... lookin for a little payback for killing their brother.. or father.. or cousin... over there its about hearts and minds... if you do not win those.. you do not win.. period.

The situation there calls for intellect and intelligence. Violating the GC and violating basic human rights in an occupied country.. is not going to win a stable future.

[marks2065 0]

Quote

Quote

I feel if done under the right situation at the right time it does work to a degree that could have positive outcomes.

Quote

if you could prevent a bombing by extracting information from a war prisoner i am ok with that.

How did you get to the opinion that this is a viable method?

What did you see, read, &/or experience that prompted that conclusion?

VR/Marg

human nature. everyone has a breaking point, and the trick is to find that and find the path to that. torture is any means that makes someone give out what they don't want to, not all torture is violent, but all forced extractions are torture.

[marks2065 0]

Quote

>when did i say i supported killing or torturing innocent people?

You did above. You are apparently OK with the Dilawar episode.

>if you could prevent a bombing by extracting information from a war prisoner i
>am ok with that.

If you could prevent a bombing by shooting a US soldier in the back, would you do it?

if that soldier was acting as a terrorist, yes.

[marks2065 0]

Now back to the THREAD.. we are doing the same over there turning more civilians.. into insurgents.. or as you like to call them terrorists... lookin for a little payback for killing their brother.. or father.. or cousin... over there its about hearts and minds... if you do not win those.. you do not win.. period.

The situation there calls for intellect and intelligence. Violating the GC and violating basic human rights in an occupied country.. is not going to win a stable future.

[billvon 3,107]

>if that soldier was acting as a terrorist, yes.

No, he wasn't - and he gave no sign that he was going to bomb anything. But you saw him near explosives, and you thought he might use them later.

Would you do it? Or would you take the chance that he might use those explosives for a bombing later?

[Amazon 7]

Quote

On this we agree, but I would not limit my options on how to reach these goals.

The goal is winning the war and leaving a stable country in place. To do anything that does not further the achievent of that goal is counter-productive and self defeating.

[nerdgirl 0]

Quote

Now back to the THREAD.. we are doing the same over there turning more civilians.. into insurgents.. or as you like to call them terrorists... lookin for a little payback for killing their brother.. or father.. or cousin... over there its about hearts and minds... if you do not win those.. you do not win.. period.

The situation there calls for intellect and intelligence. Violating the GC and violating basic human rights in an occupied country.. is not going to win a stable future.

On this we agree, but I would not limit my options on how to reach these goals.

[jakee 1,594]

Quote

human nature. everyone has a breaking point, and the trick is to find that and find the path to that. torture is any means that makes someone give out what they don't want to, not all torture is violent, but all forced extractions are torture.

What did you see, read, &/or experience that leads you to believe that the information gained at that point will be accurate?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?