If you support use of torture, you support al Qa’eda’s “greatest recruiting tool”

[frequentfaller 0]

The rub seems to be in the question: "What is torture?"

What I am certain torture is not: sleep deprivation, bad food, poor climate control, loud music/audio garbage...to name a few.

The rest??

One thing I don't like about this argument though: one solution does not fit all individuals.

I agree. "Imprisonment itself, even when relatively benign, is arguably a form of torture. This is implicit in our society using prison as the most dire legal form of both "punishment" and "deterrence," except for execution. Moreover, in the typical American prison, designed and run to maximize degradation, brutalization, and punishment, overt torture is the norm. Beatings, electric shock, prolonged exposure to heat and even immersion in scalding water, sodomy with riot batons, nightsticks, flashlights, and broom handles, shackled prisoners forced to lie in their own excrement for hours or even days, months of solitary confinement, rape and murder by guards or prisoners instructed by guards--all are everyday occurrences in the American prison system."

The American Prison and the Normalization of Torture

By H. Bruce Franklin

should we stop it locally first and then worry about enemy?

Born ok 1st time.

[kallend 2,146]

Quote

Quote

I'd like to remind you that we have had a number of cases in the USA of people being released after years on death row after it became apparent that their "confessions" of murder were bogus, and obtained by torture.

Got a source for that?

Not being a total smartass, just honestly interested.

Yes I do. And it's been a topic on SC many times already.

Here's a good place to start reading.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jakee 1,594]

Quote

should we stop it locally first and then worry about enemy?

Or do both at the same time? There's no reason why improving the civilian prison system would require holding off on humane treatment of military detainees, or vice verca.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[frequentfaller 0]

sure. I agree.

HOW?

Born ok 1st time.

[jakee 1,594]

Quote

Which prompts me to a more ponderous question & question borne of frustration: given all of the irrefutable evidence & documentation (some of that documentation by the US military) of use of torture by representatives of the US and the undeniable lack of arguments in support of torture, what drives some of you to still support torture?

I fully understand the frustration, the cause of it popped up in this thread almost immediately. Some people just think that torture must work, and are impervious to any amount of contrary information. It's always the same argument as well, what about the really important information that we need really quickly.

A: Torture doesn't work, here's why. [Evidence]
B: Yeah, sure I accept that, but what about when we really need the information?
A: Use classical interrogation techniques, they'll get the information far more reliably than torture.
B: Yeah, sure I accept that, but what about when we really, really need it now?
A: Use classical interrogation techniques, they'll get the information far more reliably than torture.
B: Yeah, sure I accept that, but...

And it goes on.

It strikes me as being a similar mindset to the people who crop up in the aftermath of really high profile, despicable crimes who want the alleged perpetrators to be summarily executed without trial. They accept that Jury trial is the most accurate way we currently have of determining guilt (as these people do with classical interrogation vs torture)) but when it comes to the most important cases, they want to revert to the inferior method.

All I can think of is that it comes down to the visceral desire to get even, and confusing that feelgood course of action with the most useful course of action.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[kallend 2,146]

Quote

Quote

Which prompts me to a more ponderous question & question borne of frustration: given all of the irrefutable evidence & documentation (some of that documentation by the US military) of use of torture by representatives of the US and the undeniable lack of arguments in support of torture, what drives some of you to still support torture?

I fully understand the frustration, the cause of it popped up in this thread almost immediately. Some people just think that torture must work, and are impervious to any amount of contrary information. It's always the same argument as well, what about the really important information that we need really quickly.

A: Torture doesn't work, here's why. [Evidence]
B: Yeah, sure I accept that, but what about when we really need the information?
A: Use classical interrogation techniques, they'll get the information far more reliably than torture.
B: Yeah, sure I accept that, but what about when we really, really need it now?
A: Use classical interrogation techniques, they'll get the information far more reliably than torture.
B: Yeah, sure I accept that, but...

And it goes on.

It strikes me as being a similar mindset to the people who crop up in the aftermath of really high profile, despicable crimes who want the alleged perpetrators to be summarily executed without trial. They accept that Jury trial is the most accurate way we currently have of determining guilt (as these people do with classical interrogation vs torture)) but when it comes to the most important cases, they want to revert to the inferior method.

All I can think of is that it comes down to the visceral desire to get even, and confusing that feelgood course of action with the most useful course of action.

As far as I can see, it's the same subset of people that condone torture as support execution with minimal or no appeals.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,146]

Quote

sure. I agree.

HOW?

How? You suggest that it is difficult to stop torturing prisoners. All it takes is a little self-control.

You suggest it is difficult to run a civilized prison system instead of an abusive one. All it takes is a desire to put an end to abuse, instead of winking at it.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[frequentfaller 0]

How? You suggest that it is difficult to stop torturing prisoners. All it takes is a little self-control.

You suggest it is difficult to run a civilized prison system instead of an abusive one. All it takes is a desire to put an end to abuse, instead of winking at it.

Quote

torture has been going on since imprisonment began. Is this another of your bush did it? people that would not abuse prisoners, don't want to work in prisons. i don't say it is difficult to run civilized prison, i say its imposible.

Born ok 1st time.

[SpeedRacer 1]

Great post! Exactly what I've been trying to get across!

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[Amazon 7]

Quote

You suggest it is difficult to run a civilized prison system instead of an abusive one. All it takes is a desire to put an end to abuse, instead of winking at it.

The same mindset is involved in both. If prison guards were subjected to some form of oversight and pshycological profiling to remove the sadists it would be a start. The same goes for those in the uniformed services who come in contact with prisoners.

Basic "In Group- Out Group" sociology or the Stanford prison experiment shows quite well the darker side of humanity.. or lack of it.

[Remster 30]

Quote

Basic "In Group- Out Group" sociology or the Stanford prison experiment shows quite well the darker side of humanity.. or lack of it.

Actually Jeanne, the Stanford experiment doesnt show that.

It shows that even normal, balanced people can easily devolve into abusers. It has nothing to do, as you suggested, with removing sadists. Its all about setting bondaries and controls to not allow this to happen.

Remster

[Amazon 7]

That is why I put in the part about psychological testing and oversight... remove the idiots who get off on their power.. rather than doing an already difficult job.

[kallend 2,146]

Quote

How? You suggest that it is difficult to stop torturing prisoners. All it takes is a little self-control.

You suggest it is difficult to run a civilized prison system instead of an abusive one. All it takes is a desire to put an end to abuse, instead of winking at it.

Quote

torture has been going on since imprisonment began. Is this another of your bush did it? people that would not abuse prisoners, don't want to work in prisons. i don't say it is difficult to run civilized prison, i say its imposible.

What a cop-out.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[frequentfaller 0]

thats all you got? what a bigger cop out.

Born ok 1st time.

[marks2065 0]

Quote

That is why I put in the part about psychological testing and oversight... remove the idiots who get off on their power.. rather than doing an already difficult job.

I wonder what this world would be like if we put the attention, time and money on defending the rights and taking care of the victims of crimes. Why do we waste resources on the guilty?

Weather the crime was local of foriegn makes no difference, and resources should be spent on defending the victims and nothing spared to achieve what is needed to make this world safe for those that have been victimized. we waste billions a year to defend criminals and murderers and very little to take care of the people that have endured the tortures put on them by the agressors.

If torture saves the lives of american soldiers or people in the streets then i am for it.

[kallend 2,146]

Quote

Quote

That is why I put in the part about psychological testing and oversight... remove the idiots who get off on their power.. rather than doing an already difficult job.

I wonder what this world would be like if we put the attention, time and money on defending the rights and taking care of the victims of crimes. Why do we waste resources on the guilty?

Weather the crime was local of foriegn makes no difference, and resources should be spent on defending the victims and nothing spared to achieve what is needed to make this world safe for those that have been victimized. we waste billions a year to defend criminals and murderers and very little to take care of the people that have endured the tortures put on them by the agressors.

If torture saves the lives of american soldiers or people in the streets then i am for it.

And since it's been PROVEN not to do that, what are you for?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,146]

Quote

thats all you got? what a bigger cop out.

Cop out!

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[frequentfaller 0]

Quote

Quote

thats all you got? what a bigger cop out.

Cop out!

Born ok 1st time.

[nerdgirl 0]

Quote

If torture saves the lives of american soldiers or people in the streets then i am for it.

If torture causes the loss of life of an American soldier, sailor, airman, or Marine would you be against it?

As Sen McCain stated, torture is a; Qa’eda’s “greatest recruiting tool” – therefore torture is leading to more terrorists. More terrorists equals greater risk for US uniformed service and civilians.

Do you really not see that? Or does something else drive you to want torture to be used? (I don't know how to say that differently and still succinctly ....)

I'm genuinely asking because I can't figure out how with all the information out there showing torture is (1) ineffective; (2) increases risk to US uniformed service members, deployed civilians, and overseas Americans; and (3) is counter to US strategic interests and makes implementing & executing actions in support of US strategic interests more difficult; why anyone would still support it? I just don't get it.

Or is there some reason that you want to be 'for torture'?

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[nerdgirl 0]

Quote

Personally, I think the bigger issue should be defining torture. What do you consider torture vs interrogation? I followed one of your links and found this.

“Experience indicates that the use of force is not necessary to gain the cooperation of sources for interrogation. Therefore, the use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear. However, the use of force is not to be confused with psychological ploys, verbal trickery, or other nonviolent and noncoercive ruses used by the interrogator in questioning hesitant or uncooperative sources.”

“The psychological techniques and principles outlined should neither be confused with, nor construed to be synonymous with, unauthorized techniques such as brainwashing, mental torture, or any other form of mental coercion to include drugs. These techniques and principles are intended to serve as guides in obtaining the willing cooperation of a source. The absence of threats in interrogation is intentional, as their enforcement and use normally constitute violations of international law and may result in prosecution under the UCMJ.”

So the use of force is not suggested. The part I put in bold is the area left for interpretation. Is sleep deprivation torture since there is no force (assuming that force isn't used to keep them awake)? How about fear; ie. keeping dogs in the room. Solitaire confinement? Playing Michael Bolton music 24 hours a day?

The confusion, in my ever so humble opinion, is that the gray area lies in people's personal definition of torture.

Quote

The rub seems to be in the question: "What is torture?"

What I am certain torture is not: sleep deprivation, bad food, poor climate control, loud music/audio garbage...to name a few.

Those are strawmen. Those are not the type of activities that are being called torture.

If one continues reading the field manuals I linked, one would find answers to those questions. The professional military interrogators are clear.

The actions and behavior to which I object and to which Sen McCain objects are the behavior that led to convictions (i.e., laws that were broken) for prisoner abuse and maltreatment in Iraq and abuse at Bagram in Afghanistan; the behaviors detailed the DoD’s (MG) Taguba report; the findings of the Army’s (MG) Fay report, which explicitly found that the abuse and maltreatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib was tantamount to torture (p. 98 & p. 145); what’s been publically revealed about findings of the Army’s (still classified) Ryder report; and documented medical evidence are behaviors like beating, physical trauma, intentional psychological, trauma (long term sensory deprivation, threat of anal rape, threat of death, simulated electrocution, etc), use of military dogs for threatened violence, and (not "or") waterboarding.

Somewhat ironically, the only ones in this debate … as manufactured as it has been to some extent … who have been ‘talking’ about being nice are the active duty and retired Marines who are members of the United States Marine Corps Interrogator Translator Teams Association, whose journal masthead reflects their experience and opinion:

“…despite the complexities and difficulties of dealing with an enemy from such a hostile and alien culture, some American interrogators consistently managed to extract useful information from prisoners. The successful interrogators all had one thing in common in the way they approached their subject. They were nice to them.”

The USMC interrogators direcr experience and advice include recommendations like know their language, know their culture, and treat the captured enemy as a human being, was written up in this June 2005 article largely inspired by Marines discussing it on their version of Speakers Corner.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[marks2065 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

That is why I put in the part about psychological testing and oversight... remove the idiots who get off on their power.. rather than doing an already difficult job.

I wonder what this world would be like if we put the attention, time and money on defending the rights and taking care of the victims of crimes. Why do we waste resources on the guilty?

Weather the crime was local of foriegn makes no difference, and resources should be spent on defending the victims and nothing spared to achieve what is needed to make this world safe for those that have been victimized. we waste billions a year to defend criminals and murderers and very little to take care of the people that have endured the tortures put on them by the agressors.

If torture saves the lives of american soldiers or people in the streets then i am for it.

And since it's been PROVEN not to do that, what are you for?

no it is proven it doesn't work in ALL cases, but unless someone has proof that torture has never worked then i would have to say in some cases it does work and will sometimes save lives.

[kallend 2,146]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

That is why I put in the part about psychological testing and oversight... remove the idiots who get off on their power.. rather than doing an already difficult job.

I wonder what this world would be like if we put the attention, time and money on defending the rights and taking care of the victims of crimes. Why do we waste resources on the guilty?

Weather the crime was local of foriegn makes no difference, and resources should be spent on defending the victims and nothing spared to achieve what is needed to make this world safe for those that have been victimized. we waste billions a year to defend criminals and murderers and very little to take care of the people that have endured the tortures put on them by the agressors.

If torture saves the lives of american soldiers or people in the streets then i am for it.

And since it's been PROVEN not to do that, what are you for?

no it is proven it doesn't work in ALL cases, but unless someone has proof that torture has never worked then i would have to say in some cases it does work and will sometimes save lives.

But when it doesn't work you get false information and that loses lives, and you don't know which is which. Your position is completely untenable from a praactical viewpoint as well as being immoral and illegal.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[marks2065 0]

Quote

Quote

If torture saves the lives of american soldiers or people in the streets then i am for it.

If torture causes the loss of life of an American soldier, sailor, airman, or Marine would you be against it?

As Sen McCain stated, torture is a; Qa’eda’s “greatest recruiting tool” – therefore torture is leading to more terrorists. More terrorists equals greater risk for US uniformed service and civilians.

Do you really not see that? Or does something else drive you to want torture to be used? (I don't know how to say that differently and still succinctly ....)

I'm genuinely asking because I can't figure out how with all the information out there showing torture is (1) ineffective; (2) increases risk to US uniformed service members, deployed civilians, and overseas Americans; and (3) is counter to US strategic interests and makes implementing & executing actions in support of US strategic interests more difficult; why anyone would still support it? I just don't get it.

Or is there some reason that you want to be 'for torture'?

VR/Marg

i feel that america has comprimised itself in that we are against torture, therefore the people are not afraid of it, in that i would be less likely to give in to it untill it actually happened. but if i was in a country that I knew did use torture i would be more likely to give info under the threat of torture.

[SpeedRacer 1]

Quote

no it is proven it doesn't work in ALL cases, but unless someone has proof that torture has never worked then i would have to say in some cases it does work and will sometimes save lives.

Please post data to support your statement.

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[kallend 2,146]

Quote

Or is there some reason that you want to be 'for torture'?

VR/Marg

He voted for Bush.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.