If you support use of torture, you support al Qa’eda’s “greatest recruiting tool”

[nerdgirl 0]

Beyond the arguments & evidence, demonstrating

unequivocally the ineffectiveness of torture,

the fallacy of the Hollywood ”24” scenarios,

the increased risk to US uniformed service members and other US civilians abroad,

torture has produced bad/faulty intel that has been passed on to US policymakers

the unequivocal repudiation of use of torture by the US Army and by the USMC (are they “naïve”?), and
and
the moral and ethical arguments against torture…

there’s another reason:

Use of torture and Orwellian-"enhanced interrogation" has been the “greatest recruiting tool” for al Qa’eda, al Qa’eda in Iraq, and other insurgents targeting US soldiers, airmen, sailors, Marines, deployed civilians, and US nationals abroad.

Who said that?

Some geriatric hippie (or hippy) activist?

Some UC Berkeley law school prof … who wrote the justifications for use of torture in 2002, 2003, & 2004 … or some Harvard law prof, who supported torture?

Someone who has avoided service to one’s country (whether uniformed or not)?

No.

“… a year and a half ago, Senator Lindsey Graham and I were in Iraq. We were in the prison. The general, our U.S. general in charge of prison had us in a secluded area and met a former high-ranking member of Al Qaida, one of the toughest guys I've ever seen. I said, how did you succeed so well after the initial American victory? He said, ‘Two things’ -- he said, ‘One’ -- he said, ‘there was no control by your troops. It was total lawlessness. There was rape, looting, pillage, murder, settling of old scores. So there was lawlessness.’ ‘Second, the greatest recruiting tool we [al Qa'eda in Iraq] had -- we were able to recruit thousands of young men,’ he said, ‘was Abu Ghraib.’

“So you can't underestimate the damage that our treatment of prisoners, both at Abu Ghraib and other [facilities, has] ... harmed our national security interests.”

“What I am interested in and committed to is making sure we don't do it again. We're in this long twilight struggle here, and so America's prestige and image, as we all know, was damaged by these stories of mistreatment. And we've got to make sure the world knows that that's not the United States of America that they knew and appreciated for centuries.”

Supporting the troops means opposing all use of torture. All. By all. Against all.

We -- America -- are better … or we claim to be. Don’t lower the standards to radical Islamists.
If it’s wrong for them to do, it’s wrong for us – anything less is the perhaps the ultimate moral relativism.

[Edit to delete comment that distracts from overall post and deserves its own thread.]

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Which prompts me to a more ponderous question & question borne of frustration: given all of the irrefutable evidence & documentation (some of that documentation by the US military) of use of torture by representatives of the US and the undeniable lack of arguments in support of torture, what drives some of you to still support torture?

Late last week in an email conversation, another dz.commer asked “What’s wrong with our society?” That was in context of discovery of Caylee’s [last name?] body in Florida. “What’s wrong with our society” that some still think torture is a “good” response? What’s wrong with Christianity in America that Jesus Christ can be used as a rationalization for torture?

The information is out there. Heck, it’s been delivered directly to you .... no need for personal responsibility to find it yourself.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[quade 4]

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Where are all the self-professed “sheepdogs”? A whole lotta ya are either dogs in sheep’s clothing or closet wolves.

The whole "sheepdog" thing is pretentious BS anyway. Why even drag that into this?

Call the torturers and their supporters what they are and be done with it. They're sadists that have a warped psychological need to hurt people to make themselves feel like they're doing something valuable in the world.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[nerdgirl 0]

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Where are all the self-professed “sheepdogs”? A whole lotta ya are either dogs in sheep’s clothing or closet wolves.

The whole "sheepdog" thing is pretentious BS anyway. Why even drag that into this?

Good point ... you're right. My bad.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[Megatron 0]

First off, if we're gonna stop doing something just because our enemies use it as propaganda against us, than we might as well pull our troops out of everywhere in the world, convert to islam, and give up democracy. So I dont really see that as a valid argument against torture.

That being said, and Im certainly no expert on this, but I dont believe torture yields credible info when used frivolously. Given enough time you can get most people to admit to pretty much anything.
Im sure, however, that there have been times where this type of interrogation has led to vital intelligence which perhaps has saved the lives or hundreds, even thousands of innocent civilians and/or US troops.
Given that fact, I believe torture should be used as a legitimate interrogation method but only in certain cases and only on known and especially high-ranking members of terrorist organizations.
Besides, Al-Queda is practically doing us a favor by recruiting these scumbags...the more they recruit, the more we get to kill!

[quade 4]

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Besides, Al-Queda is practically doing us a favor by recruiting these scumbags...the more they recruit, the more we get to kill!

Sorry, but that's a pretty messed up way of thinking.

The idea should be that we don't have to kill any because they are no longer hostile toward us. Money stops flowing to kill people and can be put to better uses.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[nerdgirl 0]

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First off, if we're gonna stop doing something just because our enemies use it as propaganda against us, than we might as well pull our troops out of everywhere in the world, convert to islam, and give up democracy. So I dont really see that as a valid argument against torture.

We should not use torture because it is (1) ineffective; (2) increases risk to US uniformed service members, deployed civilians, and overseas Americans; (3) it's counter to US strategic interests and makes implementing & executing actions in support of US strategic interests more difficult; and (4) it is normatively (ethics, morals) wrong.

For some folks that still does not seem be enough. So we have another reason, which actually falls under reason (3) above. Nonetheless, Sen McCain's comments were incisive and insightful: "you can't underestimate the damage that our treatment of prisoners, both at Abu Ghraib and other [facilities, has] ... harmed our national security interests.” His words, not mine.

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On the contrary Im sure there have been times where this type of interrogation has led to vital intelligence which perhaps has saved the lives or hundreds, even thousands of innocent civilians and/or US troops.

Can you point to any? On the contrary, I can (& have repeatedly, see links in OP) point to traditional interrogation methods (no torture & no "enhanced interrogation methods") doing just that.

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Given that fact [not sure it's fact or supposition], I believe torture should be used as a legitimate interrogation method but only in certain cases and only on known and especially high-ranking members of terrorist organizations.

If it's ineffective (doesn't work), puts US military at risk, isncounter to US strategic objectives, is normatively wrong, and serves as a recruitment tool for al Qa'eda, to what benefit is pursuit of that tactic? No nuclear weapons states have ever gone to war with each other - does that mean the US policy should be proliferation of nuclear weapons?

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[billvon 3,107]

>First off, if we're gonna stop doing something just because our enemies use it
>as propaganda against us, than we might as well pull our troops out of
>everywhere in the world, convert to islam, and give up democracy.

An absurd and extremist statement. One might as well say "gee, if we can't use anthrax against civilians, we might as well pull our troops out of everywhere in the world, convert to islam, and give up democracy." The two are not even remotely connected.

>I believe torture should be used as a legitimate interrogation method . . .

. . . even if it results in dead american troops and a stronger Al Qaeda? I disagree.

[kallend 2,146]

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First off, if we're gonna stop doing something just because our enemies use it as propaganda against us, than we might as well pull our troops out of everywhere in the world, convert to islam, and give up democracy. So I dont really see that as a valid argument against torture.

That being said, and Im certainly no expert on this, but I dont believe torture yields credible info when used frivolously. Given enough time you can get most people to admit to pretty much anything.
Im sure, however, that there have been times where this type of interrogation has led to vital intelligence which perhaps has saved the lives or hundreds, even thousands of innocent civilians and/or US troops.
Given that fact, I believe torture should be used as a legitimate interrogation method but only in certain cases and only on known and especially high-ranking members of terrorist organizations.
Besides, Al-Queda is practically doing us a favor by recruiting these scumbags...the more they recruit, the more we get to kill!

Disgusting and totally missing the point, both at the same time.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[SpeedRacer 1]

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Besides, Al-Queda is practically doing us a favor by recruiting these scumbags...the more they recruit, the more we get to kill!

You really seem to have no interest in winning the war against Al Quaeda. You only want to perpetuate it.

Sadly there seems to be this trend among some people to keep America in a state of perpetual war.

Speed Racer
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[quade 4]

Not to mention 1984.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[stitch 0]

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Sadly there seems to be this trend among some people to keep America in a state of perpetual war.

Those are generally referred to as military contractors. Or companies/organizations that stand to profit from military build-ups. The Iraq war has already eclipsed any other war this country has been involved in, including WW 2, in terms of money.

"No cookies for you"- GFD
"I don't think I like the sound of that" ~ MB65
Don't be a "Racer Hater"

[Amazon 7]

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You really seem to have no interest in winning the war against Al Quaeda. You only want to perpetuate it.

Sadly there seems to be this trend among some people to keep America in a state of perpetual war.

It certainly is job security for some on here.

[Megatron 0]

Yes, it is disgusting...its an atrocity that things like this go on in the world but the fact remains that its us against them. Regardless of any Orwellian parallels that it may conjure up or how cliche it may sound..our enemies (the more committed ones) are religious extremists who believe it is their divine duty to exterminate all infidels (who are conveniently defined by us..western civilization..Americans). And we all know how stubborn a brain washed religious nut can be; they cannot be reasoned with any more than one can reason with a rabid dog..they must be put down at all costs.
That being said, any cave dwelling fuck that happens to be unfortunate enough to get caught alive should be shown no mercy, no consideration of human rights (or especially constitutional rights), they should be treated like a commodity and as such be subject to whatever interrogation methods get the job done [EDIT]: then shot in the fucking head!
Now on the question of whether torture yields reliable intel..I cannot say with certainty that it does..that is far from my area of expertise. I *believe* that it could under the right circumstances and I'm willing to bet that it has saved innocent lives in the past. If that's in fact the case, the last thing we should be worried about is consideration of these scumbag's human rights or what effect it has on Al-Queda's recruitment. Thats kinda like not cutting away from a mal because youre worried your main will land on the windshield of a crowded school bus at 65mph.

[EDIT] ..one way of preventing Al-Queda recruitment btw is if our government did a better job of keeping this shit under wraps. Like 1) keep the media the fuck off the battlefield, and 2) keeping the average meathead marine in check so the shit that went on in abu-jambu prison doesnt get out into the general public.

[billvon 3,107]

>our enemies (the more committed ones) are religious extremists who
>believe it is their divine duty to exterminate all infidels (who are
>conveniently defined by us..western civilization..Americans).

Wow, it seems like only yesterday that the enemy was the godless Commies who hated the god-fearing Americans. Of course, who can tell Oceania and Eurasia apart, anyway? The important thing is that it's us vs. them.

>That being said, any cave dwelling fuck that happens to be
>unfortunate enough to get caught alive should be shown no mercy . . .

We deserve no more than we are willing to show others. So if you are OK with terrorism, then by all means, practice it.

[Megatron 0]

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>our enemies (the more committed ones) are religious extremists who
>believe it is their divine duty to exterminate all infidels (who are
>conveniently defined by us..western civilization..Americans).

Wow, it seems like only yesterday that the enemy was the godless Commies who hated the god-fearing Americans. Of course, who can tell Oceania and Eurasia apart, anyway? The important thing is that it's us vs. them.

You got it...unfortunately it seems to be human nature. You can bet your ass that as ethnocentric and one-dimensional I may sound to you, there are hundreds if not thousands of recruiters for terrorist organizations making that same argument against us and being a million times more passionate & convincing than I can ever be.
True, 90% of average citizens, while probably still feeling some animosity against Americans (or perhaps not), are just trying to live their lives no different than we are over here. They are not the 'them' Im talking about. But we must be steadfast in differentiating one from the other and show no mercy where none is due.

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>That being said, any cave dwelling fuck that happens to be
>unfortunate enough to get caught alive should be shown no mercy . . .

We deserve no more than we are willing to show others. So if you are OK with terrorism, then by all means, practice it.

thats makes not sense, how is torturing a known terrorist for intel terrorism? reverse-terrorism maybe

[Amazon 7]

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We deserve no more than we are willing to show others. So if you are OK with terrorism, then by all means, practice it.

thats makes not sense, how is torturing a known terrorist for intel terrorism? reverse-terrorism maybe

How Many times do you think your terrorist was just somebody turned over just for a reward.. or because he just did not like the guy.. oh well shit happens.

You just turned an innocent family into terrorist supporters... that is NOT very good COIN theory.

[jakee 1,593]

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You got it...unfortunately it seems to be human nature. You can bet your ass that as ethnocentric and one-dimensional I may sound to you, there are hundreds if not thousands of recruiters for terrorist organizations making that same argument against us

Are you actually boasting that you've got a terrorist mindset?

Dude, that isn't a good thing!

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[FallingOsh 0]

Personally, I think the bigger issue should be defining torture. What do you consider torture vs interrogation? I followed one of your links and found this.

“Experience indicates that the use of force is not necessary to gain the cooperation of sources for interrogation. Therefore, the use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear. However, the use of force is not to be confused with psychological ploys, verbal trickery, or other nonviolent and noncoercive ruses used by the interrogator in questioning hesitant or uncooperative sources.”

“The psychological techniques and principles outlined should neither be confused with, nor construed to be synonymous with, unauthorized techniques such as brainwashing, mental torture, or any other form of mental coercion to include drugs. These techniques and principles are intended to serve as guides in obtaining the willing cooperation of a source. The absence of threats in interrogation is intentional, as their enforcement and use normally constitute violations of international law and may result in prosecution under the UCMJ.”

So the use of force is not suggested. The part I put in bold is the area left for interpretation. Is sleep deprivation torture since there is no force (assuming that force isn't used to keep them awake)? How about fear; ie. keeping dogs in the room. Solitaire confinement? Playing Michael Bolton music 24 hours a day?

The confusion, in my ever so humble opinion, is that the gray area lies in people's personal definition of torture.

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Stay positive and love your life.

[Megatron 0]

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You got it...unfortunately it seems to be human nature. You can bet your ass that as ethnocentric and one-dimensional I may sound to you, there are hundreds if not thousands of recruiters for terrorist organizations making that same argument against us

Are you actually boasting that you've got a terrorist mindset?

Dude, that isn't a good thing!

You're missing the point. The point is that while all of you are sitting here worrying about how some mass murdered is being treated behind closed doors, there are 200 others vilifying American as "the great satan" with absolutely no regard or consideration for our human rights (like those to not to have planes crashed into our buildings). The mindset is antagonistic, not terrorist.

[Megatron 0]

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We deserve no more than we are willing to show others. So if you are OK with terrorism, then by all means, practice it.

thats makes not sense, how is torturing a known terrorist for intel terrorism? reverse-terrorism maybe

How Many times do you think your terrorist was just somebody turned over just for a reward.. or because he just did not like the guy.. oh well shit happens.

You just turned an innocent family into terrorist supporters... that is NOT very good COIN theory.

Again, if we're gonna start changing our tactics based on contrived, hypothetical scenarios then we fighting a war with hands tied behind our back and might as well quit. All's fair in love & war.

[SpeedRacer 1]

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Again, if we're gonna start changing our tactics based on contrived, hypothetical scenarios then we fighting a war with hands tied behind our back and might as well quit.

You're missing the point. The point is that the use of torture is setting us back and strengthening the enemy.

If you don't care about the enemy's rights, that's fine, but it isn't the issue. You should care about whether we use a policy that actually SETS US BACK in our war against Al Quaida.

If using torture is either ineffective or ACTUALLY HARMING our efforts, then we shouldn't do it.

Speed Racer
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[FallingOsh 0]

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Again, if we're gonna start changing our tactics based on contrived, hypothetical scenarios then we fighting a war with hands tied behind our back and might as well quit. All's fair in love & war.

They're not contrived or hypothetical. Information gathered from traditional interrogation has proven to be more accurate than that given under force. We're not changing tactics because of their propaganda. We're changing them because they don't work. That's what commanders do; find a way to win.

I think you're confusing battleground emotions with what happens in prisons. If you're on the ground in a fire fight with the bad guy, then by all means do whatever is necessary to fuck them up. Keeping it humane afterward is one thing that differentiates us from the enemy. In WWII and Vietnam, the most horrific things didn't occur on the battlefield. They happened in concentration camps and the Hanoi Hilton. There is no honor in treating detainees like pin cushions and the information we get is often invalid anyway.

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Stay positive and love your life.

[kallend 2,146]

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You got it...unfortunately it seems to be human nature. You can bet your ass that as ethnocentric and one-dimensional I may sound to you, there are hundreds if not thousands of recruiters for terrorist organizations making that same argument against us

Are you actually boasting that you've got a terrorist mindset?

Dude, that isn't a good thing!

You're missing the point. The point is that while all of you are sitting here worrying about how some mass murdered is being treated behind closed doors,.

Well, there's one of your many errors - most of the detainees are not even accused of mass murder, let alone been convicted of it.

I'd like to remind you that we have had a number of cases in the USA of people being released after years on death row after it became apparent that their "confessions" of murder were bogus, and obtained by torture.

Information obtained by torture is unreliable, and torture is wrong. Period.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[FallingOsh 0]

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I'd like to remind you that we have had a number of cases in the USA of people being released after years on death row after it became apparent that their "confessions" of murder were bogus, and obtained by torture.

Got a source for that?

Not being a total smartass, just honestly interested.

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Stay positive and love your life.

[Gawain 0]

I agree with the idea that torture is not effective. Having experienced some crazy-ass pain in my life (registering 19,328,947,499,294,058,382,904,999 on a scale of 10), I can say that I probably would crack, but be so disoriented that I'd be saying anything and everything in every-order...not making sense. In other words, I'd probably say anything -- accurate or not.

Sen. McCain has unique insight on this as well, and I value his assessment.

The rub seems to be in the question: "What is torture?"

What I am certain torture is not: sleep deprivation, bad food, poor climate control, loud music/audio garbage...to name a few.

The rest??

One thing I don't like about this argument though: one solution does not fit all individuals.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!