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billvon 3,114
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>Well then I guess it must be one or the other.
All these binary choices. How about it's both? People find enlightenment in many ways.
All these binary choices. How about it's both? People find enlightenment in many ways.
Butters 0
Quoteand this
QuoteWhile Buddhism allows belief in an afterlife, such an allowance is called upaya, an expedient means to a real end. Upaya allows belief to exist as a means to an end; all belief, including that of Buddhism, is merely a construction. According to the logic of upaya, Christianity is allowable as a stage toward spiritual progression, leading eventually to the extinction of self, or nirvana.
Quotefrom the Buddhist Glossary
QuoteNirvana: Sanskrit; literally, "extinction, blowing out"; the goal of spiritual practice in Buddhism; liberation from the cycle of rebirth and suffering.
Is nirvana considered an afterlife? Because the liberation from the cycle of rebirth and suffering and the extinction of self leads to nirvana.
"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch
QuoteIs nirvana considered an afterlife?
If I am reading all this right (and I might not be) the whole point is to stop being and to be free from suffering. So I guess it means they strive to cease to exist. So that would seem to mean it is not an afterlife.
Dom
Butters 0
QuoteQuoteIs nirvana considered an afterlife?
If I am reading all this right (and I might not be) the whole point is to stop being and to be free from suffering. So I guess it means they strive to cease to exist. So that would seem to mean it is not an afterlife.
Buddhist don't strive to stop being or cease to exist, Buddhist strive for nirvana (which is a state of being free from both suffering and the cycle of rebirth).
"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch
We need a buddhist to chime in here. Because what I am finding says different.
I think I am going to have to go Barnes and Noble today
I think I am going to have to go Barnes and Noble today
Dom
Skwrl 56
Nirvana is the cessation of the wheel of dharma. Basically, in Hindu (and Buddhist) philosophy, reincarnation is taken as a given. In Buddhism, there are traditionally six realms in which one may be reborn. See http://www.npr.org/programs/re/geography_heaven/kawakarpo/wheeloflife/slide.html for a neat discussion of it.
However, as the Buddha taught, all life contains suffering (we want stuff we can't have, we grow old and frail, etc.). So the goal is to achieve satori (enlightenment) and free yourself from the cycle of rebirth (using the wheel metaphor, to be at the axle of the wheel, not on its hub - rather than being thrown about by the motion and events of the world -- and your own desires -- you are at one with them and unmoved by them). The "cessation" taught by the Buddha, is, in a sense, ceasing being blown around by the world and your desires (paraphrasing). At that point, you see eveything (even the crappy stuff) as manifestation of a benevolent universe. But there's not a sense of "Bob went to Nirvana", because one of the things that you let go of is a sense of a self. (The sense of "self", in a sense, is an illusion that separates you from others and the 'one-ness' that I was describing.) I'm not doing it justice, but that's the basic concept.
It's a little unclear exactly what Christ's view of the afterlife actually was, particularly if you read the Gospels (the four books that describe the life of Jesus) as opposed to the other books of the New Testament, which were written by Paul (who never actually met Jesus, unless you take the Road to Damascus event as "meeting") and others... You have to read the Gospels in light of the context of first centurty Judea... He was definitely a radical apocalyptic prophet, but he was far from the only one of those... He seemed to imply a coming kingdom - and Earthly one (see Matt 19:28) for which there will be a judgment before one can enter (the references to the "Son of Man", which is interesting because (a) he doesn't appear to be talking about himself in some of them, and (b) the term "Son of Man" basically meant "mankind" in Aramaic.
For those interested in learning more, check out a series of lectures published by the Teaching Company titled "The Historical Jesus" by Bart D. Ehrman.
However, as the Buddha taught, all life contains suffering (we want stuff we can't have, we grow old and frail, etc.). So the goal is to achieve satori (enlightenment) and free yourself from the cycle of rebirth (using the wheel metaphor, to be at the axle of the wheel, not on its hub - rather than being thrown about by the motion and events of the world -- and your own desires -- you are at one with them and unmoved by them). The "cessation" taught by the Buddha, is, in a sense, ceasing being blown around by the world and your desires (paraphrasing). At that point, you see eveything (even the crappy stuff) as manifestation of a benevolent universe. But there's not a sense of "Bob went to Nirvana", because one of the things that you let go of is a sense of a self. (The sense of "self", in a sense, is an illusion that separates you from others and the 'one-ness' that I was describing.) I'm not doing it justice, but that's the basic concept.
It's a little unclear exactly what Christ's view of the afterlife actually was, particularly if you read the Gospels (the four books that describe the life of Jesus) as opposed to the other books of the New Testament, which were written by Paul (who never actually met Jesus, unless you take the Road to Damascus event as "meeting") and others... You have to read the Gospels in light of the context of first centurty Judea... He was definitely a radical apocalyptic prophet, but he was far from the only one of those... He seemed to imply a coming kingdom - and Earthly one (see Matt 19:28) for which there will be a judgment before one can enter (the references to the "Son of Man", which is interesting because (a) he doesn't appear to be talking about himself in some of them, and (b) the term "Son of Man" basically meant "mankind" in Aramaic.
For those interested in learning more, check out a series of lectures published by the Teaching Company titled "The Historical Jesus" by Bart D. Ehrman.
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography
Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork
Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork
pirana 0
Quote1. Life is suffering.
3. This world brings only pain and suffering.
Ever strike anybody how fatalistic most religions are? Crimony, we need a religion with a little humor and fun built in.
Don't know about everybody else, but I think life is kinda cool, and fun.
What a bunch of killjoys.
" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley
Skwrl 56
For those interested in the Historical Jesus lectures, a small snippet that I found interesting:
***
I’ve decided that the best place to begin our study is by summarizing for you the life of a remarkable man who lived nearly 2,000 years ago.
The accounts of his life may sound familiar to you.
1. Before he was born, his mother knew he would not be a normal child. An angelic visitor told her that her son would be divine.
2. His birth was accompanied by miraculous signs and wonders and as a child, he was religiously precocious.
3. As an adult, he left home to engage in an itinerant preaching ministry, teaching his good news that people should live for what is spiritual, not the material things of this world.
4. He gathered disciples and did miracles to confirm them in their faith.
5. He raised the ire of many of those in power, who had him brought up on charges before the Roman authorities.
6. Even after he left this world, though, his followers claimed that he had ascended to heaven and that they had seen him alive afterwards. They wrote books about his life, and some of these writings still survive today.
I doubt if any of you has ever read them, and I doubt if many of you have even heard the name of the man I’ve been describing: Apollonius of Tyana.
He was a famous neo-Pythagorean philosopher of the first century AD, a worshiper of pagan gods, whose life and teachings are recorded for us in the writings of his later follower Philostratus, The Life of Apollonius of Tyana.
Apollonius lived at about the same time as Jesus, although they never knew each other. Their followers, though, knew each other and had heated debates about who was superior.
These were not the only two men believed to be divine. Jesus may be the only miracle-working Son of God that we know about in our world, but he was not at all the only one talked about in his world.
***
I’ve decided that the best place to begin our study is by summarizing for you the life of a remarkable man who lived nearly 2,000 years ago.
The accounts of his life may sound familiar to you.
1. Before he was born, his mother knew he would not be a normal child. An angelic visitor told her that her son would be divine.
2. His birth was accompanied by miraculous signs and wonders and as a child, he was religiously precocious.
3. As an adult, he left home to engage in an itinerant preaching ministry, teaching his good news that people should live for what is spiritual, not the material things of this world.
4. He gathered disciples and did miracles to confirm them in their faith.
5. He raised the ire of many of those in power, who had him brought up on charges before the Roman authorities.
6. Even after he left this world, though, his followers claimed that he had ascended to heaven and that they had seen him alive afterwards. They wrote books about his life, and some of these writings still survive today.
I doubt if any of you has ever read them, and I doubt if many of you have even heard the name of the man I’ve been describing: Apollonius of Tyana.
He was a famous neo-Pythagorean philosopher of the first century AD, a worshiper of pagan gods, whose life and teachings are recorded for us in the writings of his later follower Philostratus, The Life of Apollonius of Tyana.
Apollonius lived at about the same time as Jesus, although they never knew each other. Their followers, though, knew each other and had heated debates about who was superior.
These were not the only two men believed to be divine. Jesus may be the only miracle-working Son of God that we know about in our world, but he was not at all the only one talked about in his world.
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography
Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork
Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork
pirana 0
QuoteIf They are the same, it's because Jesus was a copy. However, there are lots of lists floating around "proving" that Jesus was a copy of this that or the other God/prophet.
They are all essentially the same. All religions share common themes that have been borrowed, handed down, and modified from previous iterations of the same old stuff. Some of it is good, some of it is the same old oogie-boogie BS.
Belief in supernatural entities is a great way to keep people in line. Christianity is just one modern version of the same old story.
" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley
jakee 1,594
QuoteQuote1. Life is suffering.
3. This world brings only pain and suffering.
Ever strike anybody how fatalistic most religions are? Crimony, we need a religion with a little humor and fun built in.
Ironic isn't it, given how often we hear "But I couldn't be an atheist, it's all such a bleak and hopeless philosophy."
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
Butters 0
QuoteWe need a buddhist to chime in here. Because what I am finding says different.
A Buddhist who understands the true nature of being can still voluntarily be reincarnated which means a Buddhist does not stop being or cease to exist. Your concept of self and being (stemming from western culture and religion) is probably causing you to misunderstand the extinction of self.
"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch
Skwrl 56
A (rough) way to think of it is "extinction of the ego". (But it's actually a little more than just the ego, so the word "self" gets used.)
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography
Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork
Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork
I did see a word in the buddhist glossary (having trouble finding it again), that talked about choosing to hold off Nirvana and allowing themselves to be reincarnated to come back and help others achieve Nirvana. So maybe you are right.
This has gotten me interested in Buddhism though. Lots of reading ahead. Since I am in NYC and looking for a job. I think I may have some time on my hands to learn a bit more
This has gotten me interested in Buddhism though. Lots of reading ahead. Since I am in NYC and looking for a job. I think I may have some time on my hands to learn a bit more
Dom
Skwrl 56
"Bodhisattva" is the word you are looking for.
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography
Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork
Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork
Butters 0
QuoteA (rough) way to think of it is "extinction of the ego". (But it's actually a little more than just the ego, so the word "self" gets used.)
I think those raised in a western culture or religion have a more difficult time understanding the concepts because western culture and religion focus on the self and the continual existence of the self through various states of being.
PS: Psychiatrists have used hallucinogens to help patients enter a state of being devoid of self ...
"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch
normiss 893
I heard Jeebus doesn't care for the belly rub approach either.
Quote"Bodhisattva" is the word you are looking for
THats the one. Thanks
Dom
Skwrl 56
By the way, some of the "similarities" are a little misleading (there's really no 'baptism' concept in Buddhism), but I would suggest, if this is an area of interest, that you not focus on details like that and focus on the fundamental messages.
The Buddha taught about dis-attachment and compassion as being "the way" to englightenment. The Christ taught about the coming judgment of mankind, and urged us to reject the material and traditional in our world (Christ was, per the Gospels, more radical than any radical you'd find today).
Both, as far as I can tell, pointed at a transcendent - something more important than the stuff we look at every day, and certainly more important than ourselves. So insofar as there's a common thread, as far as I can figure, that's it. For what it's worth, Muhammed's lessons about the will of Allah (God) were actually pretty similar. So, look for the core concepts, and I think you'll find incredible similarity.
And maybe that's enough.
The Buddha taught about dis-attachment and compassion as being "the way" to englightenment. The Christ taught about the coming judgment of mankind, and urged us to reject the material and traditional in our world (Christ was, per the Gospels, more radical than any radical you'd find today).
Both, as far as I can tell, pointed at a transcendent - something more important than the stuff we look at every day, and certainly more important than ourselves. So insofar as there's a common thread, as far as I can figure, that's it. For what it's worth, Muhammed's lessons about the will of Allah (God) were actually pretty similar. So, look for the core concepts, and I think you'll find incredible similarity.
And maybe that's enough.
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography
Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork
Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork
Perhaps they could consider Deism or Pantheism instead?
'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'
'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'
QuoteJesus and Buddha? Probably not.
Jesus and Elvis? Maybe....
Seriously hilarious reply! Thanks.
'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'
skydyvr 0
Quote
The first step on the path to enlightenment is to get over yourself.
. . =(_8^(1)
rehmwa 2
QuoteQuote1. Life is suffering.
3. This world brings only pain and suffering.
Ever strike anybody how fatalistic most religions are? Crimony, we need a religion with a little humor and fun built in.
Don't know about everybody else, but I think life is kinda cool, and fun.
What a bunch of killjoys.
+1
as far as Jesus and Buddha? I'm ok with anybody that walks around and recommends that we should all "freely choose" to be decent to one another
religion and government fail when groups misinterpret that goal as - it's a good idea to "make" everyone be decent to one another.
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
rehmwa 2
QuoteQuoteJesus and Buddha? Probably not.
Jesus and Elvis? Maybe....
Seriously hilarious reply! Thanks.
what's so funny - they are both living, right now, on the same island
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
I am a non believer, but it still interests me in the way that people can believe in a bible that supposedly is the "true" word of God, when there is really no evidence that it is true and correct.
I still say God bless you and all the polite things that we say, but that is just the programming that happens over time I guess.
I believe that all "Gods" are a power trip and a way for the few to control the many. People at one time used to believe in many Gods, one for just about everything you could think of. They all "belonged" to different people. They (gods) did not love everyone, only those that worshiped them. Then along comes this really smart guy (Jesus) with a big heart and said to the masses. "Hey, I have only one God and he is in control of everything, and he loves all of you no matter what."
Sounds like a better deal then Gods that only help the people that can afford to kill a goat, or give presents to the priests or whatever offerings they had to give up.
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