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Muenkel

Quick Constitutional question in regard to a President-Elect

By Muenkel, in Speakers Corner

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Muenkel    0

Muenkel
This whole situation with Gov. Blago got me wondering about a Constitutional question. I am in no way suggesting that Pres.-elect Obama has any link to the alleged criminal activity of Gov. Blago. This is just a hypothetical question. If a President-Elect was to be indited on criminal charges and steps down before the inauguration, who becomes the President-Elect? Would it be the VP-elect? Would there be a new election? I scanned the Constitution and was unable to find the answer.



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quade    4

quade
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This whole situation with Gov. Blago got me wondering about a Constitutional question. I am in no way suggesting that Pres.-elect Obama has any link to the alleged criminal activity of Gov. Blago. This is just a hypothetical question. If a President-Elect was to be indited on criminal charges and steps down before the inauguration, who becomes the President-Elect? Would it be the VP-elect? Would there be a new election? I scanned the Constitution and was unable to find the answer.



From the moment he officially becomes President elect, which is the first monday after the second Tuesday in December (December 15 in this case), if the President Elect can not serve for any reason, then the Vice-president elect steps in.

There is NO provision whatsoever if Obama were to step down or could not serve before next Monday.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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Muenkel    0

Muenkel
Thanks Paul. I'm confident we won't be facing this scenario come Jan. 20th. The situation in Illinois just made me wonder if this should ever happen.

What happens to the Pres.-elect if this scenario came down prior to the 2nd Tuesday in Dec.?



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Chris






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quade    4

quade
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Thanks Paul. I'm confident we won't be facing this scenario come Jan. 20th. The situation in Illinois just made me wonder if this should ever happen.

What happens to the Pres.-elect if this scenario came down prior to the 2nd Tuesday in Dec.?



Sorry I got my date mixed up...first Monday after the second Tuesday in December.

There is NO provision anywhere for such a thing in the Constitution.

Weird I know. Country would probably have to look towards the Surpreme Court to figure it out.
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quade    4

quade
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When does the Electoral College vote?



Technically, it doesn't. It's a state issue. They figure the respective state electoral votes out and deliver them.

What it does do is present the votes on the . . . first Monday after the second Tuesday, joint session of Congress. President of the Senate (in this case Dick Cheney) in supposed to read, but it -may- turn out he's a sore loser and give that over to the President Pro-tem, Robert Byrd.
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quade    4

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If this scenario was to ever happen, what frightens me is we would have a possible convicted criminal who has already been given top secret intel.



Really? That's your biggest issue? Not the fact that the Supreme Court could reverse an election? Not that it puts the winner of the election in "super extra conspiracy theory" territory if assassinated?

Those things bother me far more than anything a pre-President-elect going to prison with a couple of secrets would happen to have in his head. That person gets high-level briefings to be sure, but doesn't have his finger on the button or anything. Probably doesn't have the super top secret invasion plans of the lame duck President's final parting shot to the world. I seriously doubt there's any real danger in those terms.
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labrys    0

labrys
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From the moment he officially becomes President elect, which is the first monday after the second Tuesday in December (yesterday), if the President Elect can not serve for any reason, then the Vice-president elect steps in.

There is NO provision whatsoever if Obama were to step down or could not serve before next Monday.



So if he is officially the president elect as of yesterday what is significant about next Monday?
Owned by Remi #?

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quade    4

quade
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From the moment he officially becomes President elect, which is the first monday after the second Tuesday in December (yesterday), if the President Elect can not serve for any reason, then the Vice-president elect steps in.

There is NO provision whatsoever if Obama were to step down or could not serve before next Monday.



So if he is officially the president elect as of yesterday what is significant about next Monday?



I had my timeline goofed up and awkwardly worded that reply. I have now corrected it. The key "moment" is when the President of the Senate reads the results into record the first Monday after the second Tuesday in December (in this case, next Monday, December 15).
quade -
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Muenkel    0

Muenkel
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If this scenario was to ever happen, what frightens me is we would have a possible convicted criminal who has already been given top secret intel.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Really? That's your biggest issue? Not the fact that the Supreme Court could reverse an election? Not that it puts the winner of the election in "super extra conspiracy theory" territory if assassinated?

Those things bother me far more than anything a pre-President-elect going to prison with a couple of secrets would happen to have in his head. That person gets high-level briefings to be sure, but doesn't have his finger on the button or anything. Probably doesn't have the super top secret invasion plans of the lame duck President's final parting shot to the world. I seriously doubt there's any real danger in those terms.



My scenario would definitely concern me. Your scenario is very valid and would concern me also.



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lawrocket    3

lawrocket
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Thanks Paul. I'm confident we won't be facing this scenario come Jan. 20th. The situation in Illinois just made me wonder if this should ever happen.

What happens to the Pres.-elect if this scenario came down prior to the 2nd Tuesday in Dec.?



Sorry I got my date mixed up...first Monday after the second Tuesday in December.

There is NO provision anywhere for such a thing in the Constitution.

Weird I know. Country would probably have to look towards the Surpreme Court to figure it out.


Quade isn't always wrong, folks.;)


My wife is hotter than your wife.

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miked10270    0

miked10270
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From the moment he officially becomes President elect, which is the first monday after the second Tuesday in December (December 15 in this case), if the President Elect can not serve for any reason, then the Vice-president elect steps in.

There is NO provision whatsoever if Obama were to step down or could not serve before next Monday.



I guess that the "Apollo-13 Argument" applies here.

IF the constitution were written to cover all such eventualities, then the Founding Fathers would still be writing the constitution!

They surely assumed that there'd still be some common sense around after they'd gone and that their successors would, perhaps, write some Amendments to their original document to cover situations they hadn't considered?

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

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quade    4

quade
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They surely assumed that there'd still be some common sense around after they'd gone and that their successors would, perhaps, write some Amendments to their original document to cover situations they hadn't considered?



It's hardly something that no one could imagine; that is after all how this thread got started.

I guess you don't know the history of the situation. The US Constitution already has been amended once to handle the period between being declared President Elect and the Inauguration. See Amendment 20, section 3 (1933). At that time the new Amendment could have addressed the issue but it seems to have slipped their minds as well.

Another opportunity came up in 1967 with Amendment 25, but again seems to have been glossed over.

While the Founding Fathers and following Congresses didn't think of a great many things, this situation probably should have given the shorter life spans in the early years of our country, the tendency of some Presidents in general to duel at the drop of a hat (Jackson) and continuing to assassinations and various attempts on Presidents and candidates. Full list here. Side note on Jackson; ya gotta love a guy that when confronted with an assassin, beats him down with a cane!

While the US Constitution was specifically designed to be amended, nowhere else is there such a gaping hole in how the leadership of the country is to be chosen under any circumstance. It remains an oddity how this has slipped by for well over 200 years.
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The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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BIGUN    1,521

BIGUN
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When does the Electoral College vote?



Quote

Technically, it doesn't. It's a state issue. They figure the respective state electoral votes out and deliver them.



The people of the United States vote for the electors who then vote for the President.

December 15, 2008 - Meeting of Electors:

The electors in each State meet to select the President and Vice President of the United States. The electors record their votes on six "Certificates of Vote," which are paired with the six remaining original "Certificates of Ascertainment." The electors sign, seal and certify the packages of electoral votes and immediately send them to the Federal and State officials listed in these instructions.

Source: http://www.archives.gov/federal-register/electoral-college/state_responsibilities.html
Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

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quade    4

quade
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Re: Amendment 20, section 3 -

Wouldn't this fall under 'if the President elect shall have failed to qualify' in the Amendment?



Except . . . he's not actually the President Elect until the election is official (next Monday), let alone President which doesn't happen until January 20.
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quade    4

quade
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"The King is dead. Long live the King" has an appealing simplicity by comparison.



I kinda gotta agree with ya. Too many steps to the process yet in some cases too few. Certain ambiguities of succession such as this and the infamous, "who gets to be the President if the President dies during war?"
quade -
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