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mnealtx 0
Quoteif you cant hit someone reliably in their extremeties, maybe you shouldnt be shooting at all!? i know, i can! "who said i shouldnt have hit that innocent bystander!", jeeezuz!
How many times have YOU 'hit someone reliably in their extremities' in a life/death situation, VB - if you've done it at all, that is.
Which one of your Army units uses/teaches that tactic, btw, or are you just talking out of your ass?
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
Coreece 190
QuoteMaybe I should just throw rocks at him.
Well if they're so damn leathal why not?
Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...
tumbler 0
You are funny 
I am sorry if this seems ignorant but I really don’t think it has anything to do with being a Yank, Brit or Swiss… but nice try. 
It comes down to using a weapon and yes, we disagree greatly on this subject.
You are clearly a better shot than I am. I generally hit what I aim at, I guess I give myself a tad bit more room for error aiming at the torso than at the arm.
Now if you are really good you should just shoot the gun, knife or rock right out of their hand. Now that would be something. 
if you do get advanced shooting training as i did, that's what you'll learn.
just today in the news: "cop shots guy in leg after freaking out in traffic control". sorry, no linky. and i guess you wont understand german, would you!?
@tumbler: i posted earlier: "preferably in the leg", as legs are a much less likely to be moved/waved around as much as arms. especially with an attacker that might wants to throw stones at you.
you also give yourself a tad greater chance at killing the guy when shooting in the torso than hitting the leg. also, the torso has more than one hitting zone. upper torso is more likely to kill the guy than the lower torso. just for the records. i know i can give headshots at a not moving target at 300 yards. doesnt mean you should try to go for the head, that would even by american standards be categorized as murder..
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda
mnealtx 0
Quotejust today in the news: "cop shots guy in leg after freaking out in traffic control". sorry, no linky. and i guess you wont understand german, would you!?
My German wasn't THAT good to begin with, and even worse now having not lived there in the last 11 years.
Quoteyou also give yourself a tad greater chance at killing the guy when shooting in the torso than hitting the leg
You contradict yourself - going to the gun should be the last resort in response to lethal force being directed against you. If that lethal threat isn't there, why would you not be using the baton or taser in the first place?
By American standards, you are generally justified in using lethal force to defend against a lethal attack. If the attack is NOT lethal, then that use of force results in a murder trial.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
nerdgirl 0
I was a few miles (literally) north of intersection of Florence and Normandie Avenues during the 1992 riots/uprising. Most of my colleagues went behind the "Orange curtain" (to Orange county). I stayed throughout the entire time.
Or Payless Shoes ... or Baskin-Robbins. Those stores were looted during the 1992 riots/uprising too.
That's a very small sliver & one perspective of many on the 1992 LA riots/uprising.
I’m not sure if you were being sarcastic or serious with the claim that the LA riots started for “fun”?
The criminal events at the intersection of Florence and Normandie Aves escalated in no small part because the police pulled back *before* it started. Remember the news videos from hovering helicopters? Who came and rescued/saved Reginald Denny? (A black citizen of South Central LA who saw what was going on & saw no one [read: police] was coming in.) The only group that would go in was the firefighters, and once they became targets, they pulled back. Eventually Governor Wilson called in the National Guard and the later the response was federalized and active duty Army & Marines were deployed (Title 10 troops). It largely was the intervention of the Army that brought the end. If it happened today, I speculate it would be called an insurgency.
There was a palpable sense – beyond the usual omnipresent and insidious hopelessness of South Central LA – of simmering of emotions and anticipated injustice as the announcement of the verdict from Simi Valley of the trial of the police officers accused of beating Rodney King, which compounded the perceived injustice related to the Latasha Harlins (sp?) verdict (perception: Korean shop keeper kills black girl with no consequences). You may disagree with the perception of injustice but that *was* (and still is for some) the perception; perceptions drive actions. That was the era of LAPD Chief Darryl (sp?) Gates. An era which was characterized by racial profiling and corruption: remember the Christopher Commission& “Operation Hammer”? There was high unemployment. It was unusually hot and humid for LA in April … heck, it was unusually hot & humid for LA in July or August. My hypothesis is that incidence of riots is inversely proportional to distance from the equator. When was the last time you heard of a riot in Norway?
Now all of that may … or may not relate to the Athens riots. The 1992 LA riots were about a lot more than “fun”; again I’m unsure if the characterization was meant as serious or sarcasm.
VR/Marg
Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying
QuoteFew people would say, what does stealing a VCR have to do with Rodney King? No, they were thugs looking for a reason,
Or Payless Shoes ... or Baskin-Robbins. Those stores were looted during the 1992 riots/uprising too.
QuoteThe LA Riots started at a flashpoint of Florence and Normandie. It just took a few of the worst to get it started. Then it spread.
Look - people riot because it's fun. Not because they hate it or are impartial to it. They like it. And within a few days they have sleep and the riots stop.
That's a very small sliver & one perspective of many on the 1992 LA riots/uprising.
I’m not sure if you were being sarcastic or serious with the claim that the LA riots started for “fun”?
The criminal events at the intersection of Florence and Normandie Aves escalated in no small part because the police pulled back *before* it started. Remember the news videos from hovering helicopters? Who came and rescued/saved Reginald Denny? (A black citizen of South Central LA who saw what was going on & saw no one [read: police] was coming in.) The only group that would go in was the firefighters, and once they became targets, they pulled back. Eventually Governor Wilson called in the National Guard and the later the response was federalized and active duty Army & Marines were deployed (Title 10 troops). It largely was the intervention of the Army that brought the end. If it happened today, I speculate it would be called an insurgency.
There was a palpable sense – beyond the usual omnipresent and insidious hopelessness of South Central LA – of simmering of emotions and anticipated injustice as the announcement of the verdict from Simi Valley of the trial of the police officers accused of beating Rodney King, which compounded the perceived injustice related to the Latasha Harlins (sp?) verdict (perception: Korean shop keeper kills black girl with no consequences). You may disagree with the perception of injustice but that *was* (and still is for some) the perception; perceptions drive actions. That was the era of LAPD Chief Darryl (sp?) Gates. An era which was characterized by racial profiling and corruption: remember the Christopher Commission& “Operation Hammer”? There was high unemployment. It was unusually hot and humid for LA in April … heck, it was unusually hot & humid for LA in July or August. My hypothesis is that incidence of riots is inversely proportional to distance from the equator. When was the last time you heard of a riot in Norway?
Now all of that may … or may not relate to the Athens riots. The 1992 LA riots were about a lot more than “fun”; again I’m unsure if the characterization was meant as serious or sarcasm.
VR/Marg
Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying
nerdgirl 0
Quotethere was no discernable righteous reason to start these riots; it is nothing more than a convenient excuse to be an asshole.
Assuming (always a dangerous supposition) that what you wrote reflects the totality of the situation & causal factors, where was the breakdown that went from one dead teenage criminal to multiple days of riots that may bring down a government?
VR/Marg
Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying
Not hitting innocent bystanders is a good reason to aim center mass. "How was I to kow it would go through his calf and ricochet into that kid's head?"
Aim center mass. If you just want to disable someone without killing that person then a gun is not the weapon to use.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
Aim center mass. If you just want to disable someone without killing that person then a gun is not the weapon to use.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
Butters 0
QuoteI've been following it. Good on em. Fuck the govt's. We need some (WEE bit of anarchy). Have to keep em straight don't ya know?
They're pillaging and burning their neighbors, friends, and families property. They're not pillaging and burning government property or property of government officials ... if you want to keep them straight than keep it straight.
"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch
thats what i'm saying. someone throwing a rock at you while you sit in your car is no excuse for lethal force! if it were, throw back some god-damn stones.
besides, that kid was 15-fucking-years old. or do you shoot minors in your country on a regular basis!? 
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda
nerdgirl 0
Quoteand they shot him three times in the chest. this is not stopping one from throwing stones, but killing him..
QuoteOverkill certainly if that is indeed what happened. Of course, that story line came out after the riots started, no? Revisionist history, perhaps to place blame and try to quell the masses?
No, that "story line" did not come out after the riots started. All reports have been consistent that the shooting Saturday evening (whether intentional or accidental) was the single incident that pushed a more complex set of causal and proximal factors over the edge. The hurling 'petrol bombs' first occurred Sunday. That shooting sparked additional protests in Thessaloniki, Patras, on Crete, and other Greek cities.
Did any of you look at any of the links I posted? Or do you have other sources to support those assertions?
From the English language version of the Greek newspaper article I linked in my OP:
"However, footage of Saturday’s shooting, captured by a witness on her mobile phone does not appear to show Korkoneas [the arrested police officer] and his colleague coming under any kind of threat.
"The blurred, dark images appear to show the police officer standing at some distance from the 15-year-old and other youths.
"There appear to be no signs of the police officers coming under any kind of attack.
"Korkoneas has been charged with murder and illegal use of a weapon while his colleague has been charged as an accomplice."
From the Fox News story I linked in the OP:
"The policemen's lawyer, Alexis Cougias, told reporters that a ballistics examination showed that 15-year-old Alexandros Grigoropoulos was killed by a ricochet and not a direct shot. One of the officers had claimed he had fired warning shots and did not shoot directly at the boy.[Edit to add: if that is true, & I am inclined to give more credence to ballistic evidence than *anyone's* hearsay at this point, it suggests that the discussion regarding where to shoot an individual is mute/irrellevant w/r/t the Greek riots ... what's the line about facts getting in the way of a good argument?]
"Unfortunately this tragedy is the result ... of an act by the policeman to fire into the air. The bullet ricocheted, we have an entry wound from above," Cougias told reporters outside the courthouse. "It proves irrefutably that it was a ricochet."
"He said the ballistics report was not yet complete but said he had been informed of its contents by authorities. There was no comment from prosecutors, who do not make public statements on pending cases.
"Authorities are investigating reports officers used their pistols to fire warning shots in the air during Tuesday's riots.
"Greece has a long legacy of activism; it was a student uprising that eventually brought down a seven-year military junta in 1974."
From today's English language Kathimerini on-line:
"The 37-year-old police officer charged with the murder on Saturday of 15-year-old Alexis Grigoropoulos yesterday told an investigating magistrate that he had fired his gun into the air in self-defense as his lawyer claimed that a coroner’s report shows the boy was killed by a ricocheting bullet.And that may be the mis-underestimation of the year for Greece.
"In a written statement, special guard Epaminondas Korkoneas said he fired his gun into the air 'two or three times' while he and a fellow officer had been under attack by some 30 youths in the central Athens district of Exarchia. He added that the youths had been pelting them with stones, bottles and other items and shouting, 'Cops, bums, we’re going to burn you alive.' In his statement, the officer does not express any regret for his actions.
"The officer’s lawyer, Alexis Kougias, spoke of 'one big misunderstanding.'”
VR/Marg
Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying
kallend 2,150
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteOverkill certainly if that is indeed what happened. Of course, that story line came out after the riots started, no? Revisionist history, perhaps to place blame and try to quell the masses?
hmmm... why would you throw stones at people that have guns?there is a chance they might shoot you, ya know...
I guess VB thinks they were supposed to shoot the stone out of his hand.
the riots started the same day. and strike AFTER, or during the riots.
i was taught to shoot an attacker into his extremeties, i.e. arms, but preferably the legs. your comment is very ignorant. and usually a gun is the last line of defense, there are peppersprays, clubs and i dont know what not before you pull your gun..
Nice - insult aside, the cops are supposed to be able to reliably hit extremities now? Do they have special, non-overpenetrating ammunition for that, too? Have you actually DONE that in the heat of the moment?
Sorry, dude, I am NOT going to employ less-lethal means against someone employing lethal force against me. I am going to shoot at the largest target (their torso) and keep shooting until they STOP what they're doing.
there is a chance they might shoot you, ya know... What if the individual was armed with a wallet? Is that worth 42 shots?
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
obviously, we have very differing opinions on that matter. even on what an insult is. no wonder why yanks are looked upon as ignorant on this side of the pond.
if you cant hit someone reliably in their extremeties, maybe you shouldnt be shooting at all!? i know, i can! "who said i shouldnt have hit that innocent bystander!", jeeezuz!
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda
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