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kallend 2,118
Quote
Have you looked at the site? Is there ANYTHING you find just plain silly? I now find my self wanting to know more about the bible as I find it truly fascinating how most Christian do not even know the language(s) it was written in or who even wrote it. How the four gospels all give different and conflicting accounts of Christ life.
I clicked on the site and read enough of the commentaries to see they were made by ignorant people trying to sound intelligent.
Very funny: Christianity appeals directly to ignorance.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
Coreece 190
QuoteVery funny: Christianity appeals directly to ignorance.
How ignorant.
Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...
jclalor 12
Ignorance?
Science and History in Genesis
"Why should the Bible be believed concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when it is considered to be erroneously written as to points which admit of direct demonstration or unquestionable reasoning?" -- St. Augustine De Genesi ad literam i, 19
"God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good."
God purposefully designed a system that ensures the suffering and death of all his creatures, parasite and host, predator and prey.
"In the beginning" 1:1
When was the universe created?
"In the beginning" 1:1-2
The Gap Theory
The Genesis 1 creation account conflicts with the order of events that are known to science. In Genesis, the earth is created before light and stars, birds and whales before reptiles and insects, and flowering plants before any animals. The order of events known from science is just the opposite. 1:1-2:3
God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night, on the first day. Yet he didn't make the light producing objects (the sun and the stars) until the fourth day (1:14-19). And how could there be "the evening and the morning" on the first day if there was no sun to mark them? 1:3-5
God spends one-sixth of his entire creative effort (the second day) working on a solid firmament. This strange structure, which God calls heaven, is intended to separate the higher waters from the lower waters. 1:6-8
Plants are made on the third day before there was a sun to drive their photosynthetic processes (1:14-19). 1:11
God lets "the earth bring forth" the plants, rather than creating them directly. Maybe Genesis is not so anti-evolution after all. 1:11
In an apparent endorsement of astrology, God places the sun, moon, and stars in the firmament so that they can be used "for signs". This, of course, is exactly what astrologers do: read "the signs" in the Zodiac in an effort to predict what will happen on Earth. 1:14
God makes two lights: "the greater light [the sun] to rule the day, and the lesser light [the moon] to rule the night." But the moon is not a light, but only reflects light from the sun. And why, if God made the moon to "rule the night", does it spend half of its time moving through the daytime sky? 1:16
"He made the stars also." God spends a day making light (before making the stars) and separating light from darkness; then, at the end of a hard day's work, and almost as an afterthought, he makes the trillions of stars. 1:16
"And God set them [the stars] in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth." 1:17
In verse 11, God "let the earth bring forth" the plants. Now he has the earth "bring forth" the animals as well. So maybe the creationists have it all wrong. Maybe God created livings things through the process of evolution. 1:24
God gave humans dominion over every other living thing on earth. 1:26
God commands us to "be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over ... every living thing that moveth upon the earth." 1:28
"I have given you every herb ... and every tree ... for meat." 1:29
All animals were originally herbivores. Tapeworms, vampire bats, mosquitoes, and barracudas -- all were strict vegetarians, as they were created by God. 1:30
"God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good." He purposefully designed a system that ensures the suffering and death of all his creatures, parasite and host, predator and prey. 1:31
In Genesis 1 the entire creation takes 6 days, but the universe is at least 12 billion years old, with new stars constantly being formed. 1:31
Humans were not created instantaneously from dust and breath, but evolved over millions of years from simpler life forms. 2:7
After making the animals, God has Adam name them all. The naming of several million species must have kept Adam busy for a while. 2:18-22
God fashions a woman out of one of Adam's ribs.
Because of this story, it was commonly believed (and sometimes it is still said today) that males have one less rib than females. When Vesalius showed in 1543 that the number of ribs was the same in males and females, it created a storm of controversy. 2:19
God curses the serpent. From now on the serpent will crawl on his belly and eat dust. One wonders how he got around before -- by hopping on his tail, perhaps? But snakes don't eat dust, do they? 3:14
Because Adam listened to Eve, God cursed the ground and causes thorns and thistles to grow. Before this, according to the (false) Genesis story, plants had no natural defenses. The rose had no thorn, cacti were spineless, holly leaves were smooth, and the nettle had no sting. Foxgloves, oleander, and milkweeds were all perfectly safe to eat. 3:17-18
When Lamech was born, nine generations were alive at once. Adam, Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahalaleel, Jared, Enoch, Methuselah, and Lamech were all alive at the time of Lamech's birth. Adam lived to see his great-great-great-great-great-great-grandson. 5:25
"There were giants in the earth in those days." Well, I suppose it's good to know that. But why is there no archaeological evidence for the existence of these giants? 6:4
Noah is told to make an ark that is 450 feet long. 6:14-15
Whether by twos or by sevens, Noah takes male and female representatives from each species of "every thing that creepeth upon the earth." 7:8
God opens the "windows of heaven." He does this every time it rains. 7:11
All of the animals boarded the ark "in the selfsame day." 7:13-14
The flood covered the highest mountain tops (Mount Everest?) with fifteen cubits to spare. 7:20
"The windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained." This happens whenever it stops raining. 8:2
Noah sends a dove out to see if there was any dry land. But the dove returns without finding any. Then, just seven days later, the dove goes out again and returns with an olive leaf. But how could an olive tree survive the flood? And if any seeds happened to survive, they certainly wouldn't germinate and grow leaves within a seven day period. 8:8-11
When the animals left the ark, what would they have eaten? There would have been no plants after the ground had been submerged for nearly a year. What would the carnivores have eaten? Whatever prey they ate would have gone extinct. And how did the New World primates or the Australian marsupials find their way back after the flood subsided? 8:19
Noah kills the "clean beasts" and burns their dead bodies for God. According to 7:8 this would have caused the extinction of all "clean" animals since only two of each were taken onto the ark. 8:20-21
"Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth." Although this would have been good advice for the mythical Noah, it is deadly advice for humankind as a whole. Overpopulation is one of our greatest problems, yet there is nothing in the bible to address it. 9:1
According to this verse, all animals fear humans. Although it is true that many do, it is also true that some do not. Sharks and grizzly bears, for example, are generally much less afraid of us than we are of them. 9:2
"Into your hand are they (the animals) delivered." God gave the animals to humans, and they can do whatever they please with them. This verse has been used by bible believers to justify all kinds of cruelty to animals and environmental destruction. 9:2
God is rightly filled with remorse for having killed his creatures. He even puts the rainbow in the sky to remind himself of his promise to the animals not to do it again. But rainbows are caused by the nature of light, the refractive index of water, and the shape of raindrops. There were rainbows billions of years before humans existed. 9:13
Some creationists believe that this verse refers to continental drift, which, they say, began to occur during the days of Pelag (which means "division"), about 100 or so years after the flood. But many other creationists disagree. 10:25
"The whole earth was of one language." But this could not be true, since by this time (around 2400 BCE) there were already many languages, each unintelligible to the others. 11:1, 6
God worries that people could build a tower high enough to reach him (them?) in heaven, and that by so doing they will become omnipotent. 11:4-6
According to the Tower of Babel story, the many human languages were created instantaneously by God. But actually the various languages evolved gradually over long periods of time. 11:9
The ridiculously long lives of the patriarchs. 11:10-32
"And they returned to the land of the Philistines." But the Philistines didn't arrive in the region of Canaan until around 1200 BCE -- 800 years after Abraham's supposed migration from Ur. 21:32, 26:1, 8, 15, 18
Laban learns "by experience" that God has blessed him for Jacob's sake. "By experience" means "by divination", at least that is how most other versions translate this verse. 30:27
Jacob displays his (and God's) knowledge of biology by having goats copulate while looking at streaked rods. The result is streaked baby goats. 30:37-39
God (or an angel) praises Jacob for his fancy genetic work in Gen.30:37-39. 31:11-12
Joseph and his magic divining cup. 44:5, 44:15
Science and History in Genesis
"Why should the Bible be believed concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when it is considered to be erroneously written as to points which admit of direct demonstration or unquestionable reasoning?" -- St. Augustine De Genesi ad literam i, 19
"God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good."
God purposefully designed a system that ensures the suffering and death of all his creatures, parasite and host, predator and prey.
"In the beginning" 1:1
When was the universe created?
"In the beginning" 1:1-2
The Gap Theory
The Genesis 1 creation account conflicts with the order of events that are known to science. In Genesis, the earth is created before light and stars, birds and whales before reptiles and insects, and flowering plants before any animals. The order of events known from science is just the opposite. 1:1-2:3
God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night, on the first day. Yet he didn't make the light producing objects (the sun and the stars) until the fourth day (1:14-19). And how could there be "the evening and the morning" on the first day if there was no sun to mark them? 1:3-5
God spends one-sixth of his entire creative effort (the second day) working on a solid firmament. This strange structure, which God calls heaven, is intended to separate the higher waters from the lower waters. 1:6-8
Plants are made on the third day before there was a sun to drive their photosynthetic processes (1:14-19). 1:11
God lets "the earth bring forth" the plants, rather than creating them directly. Maybe Genesis is not so anti-evolution after all. 1:11
In an apparent endorsement of astrology, God places the sun, moon, and stars in the firmament so that they can be used "for signs". This, of course, is exactly what astrologers do: read "the signs" in the Zodiac in an effort to predict what will happen on Earth. 1:14
God makes two lights: "the greater light [the sun] to rule the day, and the lesser light [the moon] to rule the night." But the moon is not a light, but only reflects light from the sun. And why, if God made the moon to "rule the night", does it spend half of its time moving through the daytime sky? 1:16
"He made the stars also." God spends a day making light (before making the stars) and separating light from darkness; then, at the end of a hard day's work, and almost as an afterthought, he makes the trillions of stars. 1:16
"And God set them [the stars] in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth." 1:17
In verse 11, God "let the earth bring forth" the plants. Now he has the earth "bring forth" the animals as well. So maybe the creationists have it all wrong. Maybe God created livings things through the process of evolution. 1:24
God gave humans dominion over every other living thing on earth. 1:26
God commands us to "be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over ... every living thing that moveth upon the earth." 1:28
"I have given you every herb ... and every tree ... for meat." 1:29
All animals were originally herbivores. Tapeworms, vampire bats, mosquitoes, and barracudas -- all were strict vegetarians, as they were created by God. 1:30
"God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good." He purposefully designed a system that ensures the suffering and death of all his creatures, parasite and host, predator and prey. 1:31
In Genesis 1 the entire creation takes 6 days, but the universe is at least 12 billion years old, with new stars constantly being formed. 1:31
Humans were not created instantaneously from dust and breath, but evolved over millions of years from simpler life forms. 2:7
After making the animals, God has Adam name them all. The naming of several million species must have kept Adam busy for a while. 2:18-22
God fashions a woman out of one of Adam's ribs.
Because of this story, it was commonly believed (and sometimes it is still said today) that males have one less rib than females. When Vesalius showed in 1543 that the number of ribs was the same in males and females, it created a storm of controversy. 2:19
God curses the serpent. From now on the serpent will crawl on his belly and eat dust. One wonders how he got around before -- by hopping on his tail, perhaps? But snakes don't eat dust, do they? 3:14
Because Adam listened to Eve, God cursed the ground and causes thorns and thistles to grow. Before this, according to the (false) Genesis story, plants had no natural defenses. The rose had no thorn, cacti were spineless, holly leaves were smooth, and the nettle had no sting. Foxgloves, oleander, and milkweeds were all perfectly safe to eat. 3:17-18
When Lamech was born, nine generations were alive at once. Adam, Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahalaleel, Jared, Enoch, Methuselah, and Lamech were all alive at the time of Lamech's birth. Adam lived to see his great-great-great-great-great-great-grandson. 5:25
"There were giants in the earth in those days." Well, I suppose it's good to know that. But why is there no archaeological evidence for the existence of these giants? 6:4
Noah is told to make an ark that is 450 feet long. 6:14-15
Whether by twos or by sevens, Noah takes male and female representatives from each species of "every thing that creepeth upon the earth." 7:8
God opens the "windows of heaven." He does this every time it rains. 7:11
All of the animals boarded the ark "in the selfsame day." 7:13-14
The flood covered the highest mountain tops (Mount Everest?) with fifteen cubits to spare. 7:20
"The windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained." This happens whenever it stops raining. 8:2
Noah sends a dove out to see if there was any dry land. But the dove returns without finding any. Then, just seven days later, the dove goes out again and returns with an olive leaf. But how could an olive tree survive the flood? And if any seeds happened to survive, they certainly wouldn't germinate and grow leaves within a seven day period. 8:8-11
When the animals left the ark, what would they have eaten? There would have been no plants after the ground had been submerged for nearly a year. What would the carnivores have eaten? Whatever prey they ate would have gone extinct. And how did the New World primates or the Australian marsupials find their way back after the flood subsided? 8:19
Noah kills the "clean beasts" and burns their dead bodies for God. According to 7:8 this would have caused the extinction of all "clean" animals since only two of each were taken onto the ark. 8:20-21
"Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth." Although this would have been good advice for the mythical Noah, it is deadly advice for humankind as a whole. Overpopulation is one of our greatest problems, yet there is nothing in the bible to address it. 9:1
According to this verse, all animals fear humans. Although it is true that many do, it is also true that some do not. Sharks and grizzly bears, for example, are generally much less afraid of us than we are of them. 9:2
"Into your hand are they (the animals) delivered." God gave the animals to humans, and they can do whatever they please with them. This verse has been used by bible believers to justify all kinds of cruelty to animals and environmental destruction. 9:2
God is rightly filled with remorse for having killed his creatures. He even puts the rainbow in the sky to remind himself of his promise to the animals not to do it again. But rainbows are caused by the nature of light, the refractive index of water, and the shape of raindrops. There were rainbows billions of years before humans existed. 9:13
Some creationists believe that this verse refers to continental drift, which, they say, began to occur during the days of Pelag (which means "division"), about 100 or so years after the flood. But many other creationists disagree. 10:25
"The whole earth was of one language." But this could not be true, since by this time (around 2400 BCE) there were already many languages, each unintelligible to the others. 11:1, 6
God worries that people could build a tower high enough to reach him (them?) in heaven, and that by so doing they will become omnipotent. 11:4-6
According to the Tower of Babel story, the many human languages were created instantaneously by God. But actually the various languages evolved gradually over long periods of time. 11:9
The ridiculously long lives of the patriarchs. 11:10-32
"And they returned to the land of the Philistines." But the Philistines didn't arrive in the region of Canaan until around 1200 BCE -- 800 years after Abraham's supposed migration from Ur. 21:32, 26:1, 8, 15, 18
Laban learns "by experience" that God has blessed him for Jacob's sake. "By experience" means "by divination", at least that is how most other versions translate this verse. 30:27
Jacob displays his (and God's) knowledge of biology by having goats copulate while looking at streaked rods. The result is streaked baby goats. 30:37-39
God (or an angel) praises Jacob for his fancy genetic work in Gen.30:37-39. 31:11-12
Joseph and his magic divining cup. 44:5, 44:15
JohnRich 4
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteInteresting in what way?
How about it's humorous to all us non believers.
I didn't know you had permission to speak on behalf of jclalor, or all non-believers.
How about it's humorous to all us non beleivers. How you can really read some of that stuff and keep a straight face it's beyond me. Have you looked at the site? Is there ANYTHING you find just plain silly? I now find my self wanting to know more about the bible as I find it truly fascinating how most Christian do not even know the language(s) it was written in or who even wrote it. The fact that the first book written in the NT was not even written until 50 years after Jesus's death and most others written even much later. The number of books written and not allowed in, The variations of books found that are very different from one another.
How the four gospels all give different and conflicting accounts of Christ life.
Very good - that's more like it. You seemed to want to start a discussion, but weren't bothering to offer any opinions of your own to get things going in some direction. Now you've stepped forward and done it. All is good.
DanG 1
QuoteYou seemed to want to start a discussion, but weren't bothering to offer any opinions of your own to get things going in some direction.
Kettle, pot. Pot, kettle.
- Dan G
kallend 2,118
Quote
God makes two lights: "the greater light [the sun] to rule the day, and the lesser light [the moon] to rule the night." But the moon is not a light, but only reflects light from the sun. And why, if God made the moon to "rule the night", does it spend half of its time moving through the daytime sky? 1:16
Hey, the Moon is MUCH more important than the Sun. The Sun only shines during the day, when it's light anyway.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
jakee 1,571
QuoteQuote
God makes two lights: "the greater light [the sun] to rule the day, and the lesser light [the moon] to rule the night." But the moon is not a light, but only reflects light from the sun. And why, if God made the moon to "rule the night", does it spend half of its time moving through the daytime sky? 1:16
Hey, the Moon is MUCH more important than the Sun. The Sun only shines during the day, when it's light anyway.
"The full moon is the famous moon and err… like the three quarter moon, no-one gives a shit about him. Where does he come, two days into the calendar month? He's useless! Full moon, the main moon!"
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
Ion01 2
The reliance on the "king james version" which is horribly outdated do to the language of today posses huge problems for the arguments made in the site. The english language has changed dramatically since 1611 and we have discovered older transcripts since then as well. Also, translating from a language like greek to english is far more complicated than simply equating words. Greek has 5 words for our one word love. We say I love skydiving. Does that mean I have sex with it or something? Obviously no but if translated to greek or the other direction it may sound that way if not translated correctly, which is often what we find with the king james version as it was not a translation of the greek texts but a translation of a translation of a translation etc.... and on top of all that the site reads it as though it is the current language.
jclalor 12
The OT was not written in greek, but hebrew.
JohnRich 4
QuoteQuoteYou seemed to want to start a discussion, but weren't bothering to offer any opinions of your own to get things going in some direction.
Kettle, pot. Pot, kettle.
You don't know what the heck you're talking about. I'm not exactly known here for holding back on my opinions in threads that I start.
<Jesse Jackson voice:>
Get out of the kitchen, and pay attention.
maadmax 0
--"God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good."
God purposefully designed a system that ensures the suffering and death of all his creatures, parasite and host, predator and prey.
A: Maybe your idealized vision of a "good" earth is not the vision God had in mind. It doesn't take much extrapolation to see how your vision wouldn't work anyway.
-----
--"In the beginning" 1:1
When was the universe created?
A: 13.75 BILLION YEARS AGO, excluding possible effects of time dilation during the early inflation phase.
___________________________________________
I applaud the effort you put into your post. What was its purpose? Bible passages can be confusing, even comical if looked at one way, and profoundly meaningful if looked at in a different way. The Bible only makes sense to those who first understand the needs of their spirit . If you have never taken the time to know the shortcomings within yourself, the Bible will of course sound foolish.
...
God purposefully designed a system that ensures the suffering and death of all his creatures, parasite and host, predator and prey.
A: Maybe your idealized vision of a "good" earth is not the vision God had in mind. It doesn't take much extrapolation to see how your vision wouldn't work anyway.
-----
--"In the beginning" 1:1
When was the universe created?
A: 13.75 BILLION YEARS AGO, excluding possible effects of time dilation during the early inflation phase.
___________________________________________
I applaud the effort you put into your post. What was its purpose? Bible passages can be confusing, even comical if looked at one way, and profoundly meaningful if looked at in a different way. The Bible only makes sense to those who first understand the needs of their spirit . If you have never taken the time to know the shortcomings within yourself, the Bible will of course sound foolish.
...
DanG 1
QuoteQuoteQuoteYou seemed to want to start a discussion, but weren't bothering to offer any opinions of your own to get things going in some direction.
Kettle, pot. Pot, kettle.
You don't know what the heck you're talking about. I'm not exactly known here for holding back on my opinions in threads that I start.
<Jesse Jackson voice:>
Get out of the kitchen, and pay attention.
Let's see, of the last five threads you started, two contained nothing from you at all. I couldn't go back further because that's all that is available from your profile. Here's the two of the last five of which I speak:
Yet more good reasons for the death penalty.: wherein you provided nothing but a list of death row inmates.
Obama wants $50B in loans released to carmakers: wherein you posted a short clip from a UK newspaper with no commentary from you.
I just think it's funny for you to chide the OP for not posting anything besides, "I think this is interesting," when you do the same thing yourself all the time.
- Dan G
Coreece 190
QuoteGod makes two lights: "the greater light [the sun] to rule the day, and the lesser light [the moon] to rule the night." But the moon is not a light, but only reflects light from the sun.
We still call it "moonlight" not stellar relfection.
We also say "what a beautiful sunset" not "What a beautiful earth revolving."
QuoteAnd why, if God made the moon to "rule the night", does it spend half of its time moving through the daytime sky?
So it's ready to go to work after the earth revolving is over.
Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...
br0k3n 0
JohnRich 4
QuoteLet's see, of the last five threads you started, two contained nothing from you at all. I couldn't go back further because that's all that is available from your profile. Here's the two of the last five of which I speak:
Yet more good reasons for the death penalty.: wherein you provided nothing but a list of death row inmates.
Obama wants $50B in loans released to carmakers: wherein you posted a short clip from a UK newspaper with no commentary from you.
Two out of five? Oh the horror!
Re: "Death penalty" thread
That one was an offshoot counter-response to the thread titled "Yet another good reason for no death penalty", in which discussion was already firmly established. This one was just to show the other side of that coin. No one here who was seen my comments on the death penalty topic doubts where I stand on that issue - I have a known track record there. And my position should have also been obvious just from my chosen thread title. Duh!
Re: "Obama wants $50B..." thread
Ditto on this one, a counter-response to the thread "Bush wants $25B in loans released to carmakers". Once again, my point was obvious from the comparison of the two thread titles. If Obamer was a savior for giving them $25b, then Bush was twice as great.
You're just not keeping up with all the different threads enough to realize that some of them are interrelated.
DanG 1
No, I think you are relying on everyone knowing your positions. I do keep up and realize that you were trying to continue the discussion on your own terms. It is still the same as posting something with no commentary. If you were just trying to continue a discussion, you'd make your posts in the thread they pertain to. Starting new threads with a similar title to highlight your point is, IMHO, bad form. It is essentially saying that your point is so important that you can't stand that it might get lost in someone else's thread. It is actually a little childish.
Maybe the OP was assuming that you would already know his position on the Bible and that his point would be obvious. Or does the internet just revolve around you?
Sorry for the thread drift. Sometimes I just get very annoyed at the hypocrisy around here.
- Dan G
Maybe the OP was assuming that you would already know his position on the Bible and that his point would be obvious. Or does the internet just revolve around you?
Sorry for the thread drift. Sometimes I just get very annoyed at the hypocrisy around here.
- Dan G
Bolas 5
Quotefor those that havent seen it, I think Mr Gervais sums this whole Genisis Issue quite nicely..
Link
Nah...
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/155351/
Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.
On a similar thread why do you keep telling Atheists they need to work out their relationship with God; there is no God.
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