SoCal's atheist billboard taken down

[SpeedRacer 1]

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What's so funny about this, to me, is how people STILL think all of California is ultra left wing. People outside of SoCal have NO idea how religious conservative certain parts of California are.

This is so true... I was just talking to a friend about this last night. Particularly about the Prop 8 battle, and about the Bible Belt here in certain parts of SoCal... (OC & Tem/Mur)

And I said, "Can you imagine our world withOUT religion...?" So much less conflict, less war, less arguing, less fear, less hypocrisy, less angst, less guilt, less insecurity, less psychoses, less elitism...
.

Except when religion OPPOSES war, or gives the believer FREEDOM from guilt, fear, insecurity, etc.

Speed Racer
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[billvon 3,118]

>matter just doesn't appear out of thin air (or a vacuum for that matter)

Actually it does. Google the "Casimir effect."

>why is there this seemingly infinite vacuum to begin with, as if a canvas?

The vacuum is not a vacuum and is not infinite. We thought the oceans were infinite once, too. Turns out we just hadn't learned enough yet,

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Hmm, do Mods not get the "message already posted" screen?

[shropshire 0]

Wow... there seems to be an outbreak of multi-posting (I've seen it in another thread too).

Not an infinite number of posts but maybe we're not bright enough yet to know the limit......

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Amazon 7]

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Hmm, do Mods not get the "message already posted" screen?

Bill did go a tad wild there didn't he

[quade 4]

Maybe Bill didn't do it at all.

Maybe it's the posting equivalent of quantum physics and the posts are just popping in and out of existence all by themselves?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[kallend 2,148]

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Wow... there seems to be an outbreak of multi-posting (I've seen it in another thread too).

Not an infinite number of posts but maybe we're not bright enough yet to know the limit......

In an infinite universe, anything than can happen will happen an infinite number of times.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Coreece 190]

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There has not been one scientific test evolution has failed

Who was talking about evolution?

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Coreece 190]

thats awesome!

I'm glad you got off on that.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[jclalor 12]

***"What about the logic that a creation has a creator and that matter just doesn't appear out of thin air"

Who was talking about creation?

[billvon 3,118]

That was strange.

[Squeak 17]

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Except when religion OPPOSES war, or gives the believer FREEDOM from guilt, fear, insecurity, etc.

Well that's definitely not Christianity

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[kallend 2,148]

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There is no point in trying to argue logic with most christians

What about the logic that a creation has a creator and that matter just doesn't appear out of thin air (or a vacuum for that matter) .

What about the logic that creators don't just appear out of thin air?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[TrophyHusband 0]

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The fact is the higher one is educated, the less apt they are to believe in creation.

can you back this up with data? i don't believe it. for example, my wife has a fair amount of education, and the more she learns, the more she's convinced there is a god. even some well known physisists, possibly some of the smarted and well educated people on earth believe in god.

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[TrophyHusband 0]

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And I said, "Can you imagine our world withOUT religion...?" So much less conflict, less war, less arguing, less fear, less hypocrisy, less angst, less guilt, less insecurity, less psychoses, less elitism...

Beyond COEXIST. Just Exist.

i just don't believe that. humans will always find something to fight about.

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[Coreece 190]

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What about the logic that creators don't just appear out of thin air?

I would say thats logical.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[stevebabin 0]

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The fact is the higher one is educated, the less apt they are to believe in creation.

can you back this up with data? i don't believe it. for example, my wife has a fair amount of education, and the more she learns, the more she's convinced there is a god. even some well known physisists, possibly some of the smarted and well educated people on earth believe in god.

Back it up? Here ya go. It's a lot wider than just creation, too. (No, I'm not calling your wife an idiot)

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-thinkingchristians.htm

Here are studies that show an inverse correlation between education level and religiousity.

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Myth: Intelligent people tend to be more religious.

Fact: Intelligent people tend to be more secular.



Summary

The broad consensus of research shows that people with higher IQs tend to be less religious, not more so.



Argument

Is it more logical to be a Christian? Is religion the natural choice of a smart person familiar with more of the evidence? Not according to a broad consensus of studies on IQ and religiosity. These studies have consistently found that the lower the IQ score, the more likely a person is to be religious.

To place these studies in perspective, it is helpful to know the general religious attitudes of Americans today. According to a February 1995 Gallup poll, 96 percent of all Americans believe in God, and 88 percent affirm the importance of religion. However, the degree of religiosity within this group varies considerably. Only 35 percent can be classified as "religious," using a definition that requires them to consider religion important and attend religious services at least once a week. And a March 1994 Gallup poll found that only 20 percent of all Americans belong to that politically active group known as "Christian conservatives."

The following is a review of several studies of IQ and religiosity, paraphrased and summarized from Burnham Beckwith's article, "The Effect of Intelligence on Religious Faith," Free Inquiry, Spring 1986: (1)

STUDIES OF STUDENTS

1. Thomas Howells, 1927
Study of 461 students showed religiously conservative students "are, in general, relatively inferior in intellectual ability."

2. Hilding Carlsojn, 1933
Study of 215 students showed that "there is a tendency for the more intelligent undergraduate to be sympathetic toward… atheism."

3. Abraham Franzblau, 1934
Confirming Howells and Carlson, tested 354 Jewish children, aged 10-16. Found a negative correlation between religiosity and IQ as measured by the Terman intelligence test.

4. Thomas Symington, 1935
Tested 400 young people in colleges and church groups. He reported, "There is a constant positive relation in all the groups between liberal religious thinking and mental ability… There is also a constant positive relation between liberal scores and intelligence…"

5. Vernon Jones, 1938
Tested 381 students, concluding "a slight tendency for intelligence and liberal attitudes to go together."

6. A. R. Gilliland, 1940
At variance with all other studies, found "little or no relationship between intelligence and attitude toward god."

7. Donald Gragg, 1942
Reported an inverse correlation between 100 ACE freshman test scores and Thurstone "reality of god" scores.

8. Brown and Love, 1951
At the University of Denver, tested 613 male and female students. The mean test scores of non-believers was 119 points, and for believers it was 100. The non-believers ranked in the 80th percentile, and believers in the 50th. Their findings "strongly corroborate those of Howells."

9. Michael Argyle, 1958
Concluded that "although intelligent children grasp religious concepts earlier, they are also the first to doubt the truth of religion, and intelligent students are much less likely to accept orthodox beliefs."

10. Jeffrey Hadden, 1963
Found no correlation between intelligence and grades. This was an anomalous finding, since GPA corresponds closely with intelligence. Other factors may have influenced the results at the University of Wisconsin.

11. Young, Dustin and Holtzman, 1966
Average religiosity decreased as GPA rose.

12. James Trent, 1967
Polled 1400 college seniors. Found little difference, but high-ability students in his sample group were over-represented.

13. C. Plant and E. Minium, 1967
The more intelligent students were less religious, both before entering college and after 2 years of college.

14. Robert Wuthnow, 1978
Of 532 students, 37 percent of Christians, 58 percent of apostates, and 53 percent of non-religious scored above average on SATs.

15. Hastings and Hoge, 1967, 1974
Polled 200 college students and found no significant correlations.

16. Norman Poythress, 1975
Mean SATs for strongly antireligious (1148), moderately anti-religious (1119), slightly antireligious (1108), and religious (1022).

17. Wiebe and Fleck, 1980
Studied 158 male and female Canadian university students. They reported "nonreligious S's tended to be strongly intelligent" and "more intelligent than religious S's."

STUDENT BODY COMPARISONS

1. Rose Goldsen, 1952
Percentage of students who believe in a divine god: Harvard 30; UCLA 32; Dartmouth 35; Yale 36; Cornell 42; Wayne 43; Weslyan 43; Michigan 45; Fisk 60; Texas 62; North Carolina 68.

2. National Review Study, 1970
Percentage of students who believe in a Spirit or Divine God: Reed 15; Brandeis 25; Sarah Lawrence 28; Williams 36; Stanford 41; Boston U. 41; Yale 42; Howard 47; Indiana 57; Davidson 59; S. Carolina 65; Marquette 77.

3. Caplovitz and Sherrow, 1977
Apostasy rates rose continuously from 5 percent in "low" ranked schools to 17 percent in "high" ranked schools.

4. Niemi, Ross, and Alexander, 1978
In elite schools, organized religion was judged important by only 26 percent of their students, compared with 44 percent of all students.

STUDIES OF VERY-HIGH IQ GROUPS

1. Terman, 1959
Studied group with IQ's over 140. Of men, 10 percent held strong religious belief, of women 18 percent. Sixty-two percent of men and 57 percent of women claimed "little religious inclination" while 28 percent of the men and 23 percent of the women claimed it was "not at all important."

2. Warren and Heist, 1960
Found no differences among National Merit Scholars. Results may have been effected by the fact that NM scholars are not selected on the basis of intelligence or grades alone, but also on "leadership" and such like.

3. Southern and Plant, 1968
Studied 42 male and 30 female members of Mensa. Mensa members were much less religious in belief than the typical American college alumnus or adult.

STUDIES Of SCIENTISTS

1. William S. Ament, 1927
C. C. Little, president of the University of Michigan, checked persons listed in Who's Who in America: "Unitarians, Episcopalians, Congregationalists, Universalists, and Presbyterians [who are less religious] are… far more numerous in Who's Who than would be expected on the basis of the population which they form. Baptists, Methodists, and Catholics are distinctly less numerous."

Ament confirmed Little's conclusion. He noted that Unitarians, the least religious, were more than 40 times as numerous in Who's Who as in the U.S. population.

2. Lehman and Witty, 1931
Identified 1189 scientists found in both Who's Who (1927) and American Men of Science (1927). Only 25 percent of those listed in the latter and 50 percent of those in the former reported their religious denomination, despite the specific request to do so, under the heading of "religious denomination (if any)." Well over 90 percent of the general population claims religious affiliation. The figure of 25 percent suggests far less religiosity among scientists.

Unitarians were 81.4 times as numerous among eminent scientists as non-Unitarians.

3. Kelley and Fisk, 1951
Found a negative (-.39) correlation between the strength of religious values and research competence. [How these were measured is unknown.]

4. Ann Roe, 1953
Interviewed 64 "eminent scientists, nearly all members of the prestigious National Academy of Sciences or the American Philosophical Society. She reported that, while nearly all of them had religious parents and had attended Sunday school, 'now only three of these men are seriously active in church. A few others attend upon occasion, or even give some financial support to a church which they do not attend… All the others have long since dismissed religion as any guide to them, and the church plays no part in their lives… A few are militantly atheistic, but most are just not interested.'"

5. Francis Bello, 1954
Interviewed or questionnaired 107 nonindustrial scientists under the age of 40 judged by senior colleagues to be outstanding. Of the 87 responses, 45 percent claimed to be "agnostic or atheistic" and an additional 22 percent claimed no religious affiliation. For 20 most eminent, "the proportion who are now a-religious is considerably higher than in the entire survey group."

6. Jack Chambers, 1964
Questionnaired 740 US psychologists and chemists. He reported, "The highly creative men… significantly more often show either no preference for a particular religion or little or no interest in religion." Found that the most eminent psychologists showed 40 percent no preference, 16 percent for the most eminent chemists.

7. Vaughan, Smith, and Sjoberg, 1965
Polled 850 US physicists, zoologists, chemical engineers, and geologists listed in American Men of Science (1955) on church membership, and attendance patterns, and belief in afterlife. Of the 642 replies, 38.5 percent did not believe in an afterlife, whereas 31.8 percent did. Belief in immortality was less common among major university staff than among those employed by business, government, or minor universities. The Gallup poll taken about this time showed that two-thirds of the U.S. population believed in an afterlife, so scientists were far less religious than the typical adult.

Conclusion

The consensus here is clear: more intelligent people tend not to believe in religion. And this observation is given added force when you consider that the above studies span a broad range of time, subjects and methodologies, and yet arrive at the same conclusion.

This is the result even when the researchers are Christian conservatives themselves. One such researcher is George Gallup. Here are the results of a Fall 1995 Gallup poll:

Percentage of respondents who agreed with the following statements:

Religion is Religion can
"very important "answer all or most
Respondents in their life" of today's problems"
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Attended college 53 percent 58 percent
No college 63 65

Income over $50,000 48 56
$30,000 - $50,000 56 62
$20,000 - $30,000 56 60
Under $20,000 66 66
Why does this correlation exist? The first answer that comes to mind is that religious beliefs tend to be more illogical or incoherent than secular beliefs, and intelligent people tend to recognize that more quickly. But this explanation will surely be rejected by religious people, who will seek other explanations and rationalizations.

A possible counter-argument is that intelligent people tend to be more successful than others. The lure of worldly success and materialism draws many of these intellectually gifted individuals away from God. After all, who needs God when you (apparently) are making it on your own?

However, this argument does not withstand closer scrutiny. Most of the studies outlined above describe the religious attitudes of students, who have yet to enter the working world, much less succeed in it. Some might then argue that the most intelligent students are nonetheless succeeding in school. But "success" in school (for those who may have forgotten!) is more measured in terms of popularity, sports, physical attractiveness, personality, clothes, etc. Grades are but one of many measures of success in a young person's life -- one that is increasingly becoming less important, as many social critics point out.

The simplest and most parsimonious explanation is that religion is a set of logical and factual claims, and those with the most logic and facts at their disposal are rejecting it largely on those grounds.

Glad to be of service!

"Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings."
"Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up."

[billvon 3,118]

>can you back this up with data?

http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=581

> possibly some of the smarted and well educated people on earth believe in god.

Don't confuse believing in a god with believing in creationism. One is religion, one is an attempt to substitute myth for science.

[nerdgirl 0]

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The fact is the higher one is educated, the less apt they are to believe in creation.

can you back this up with data? i don't believe it. for example, my wife has a fair amount of education, and the more she learns, the more she's convinced there is a god. even some well known physisists, possibly some of the smarted and well educated people on earth believe in god.

One more explanation ... it must mean ya asked a good question/posed a good challenge.

I think you may be writing about different things.

Yes, belief in creationism does decline with increased education. In addition to the other cited data, Gallup polling has found (graphs attached) that 58% of those with high school education or less believe “God created Human Beings in Present Form” i.e., strict creationism. Only 25% of those with postgraduate degrees felt the same way. When broken down by party (self)-identification, similar trend is observed. At the same time that means that there are 42% of those with high school education or less that do not believe in strict creationism. (Still too low, imo … but c’est la vie.) At the same time, there are 25% of the respondents with master’s degrees, doctoral degrees, law degrees, MBAs, medical degrees, and other post-graduate education that believe in strict creationism. (Too high, imo.)

Understanding evolution as the physical-chemical method by which humans and all other living species on Earth came to be does not necessarily obviate belief in a higher deity. They are not incompatible. It’s sometimes known as theistic evolution. One way of reconciling evolutionary theory with belief in God is to consider God to have sparked the Big Bang, which eventually led to evolution. That’s not intelligent design either.

The compatibility of evolution and believing in a higher power is well-illustrated by Chapter 3 & some of the other sidebars (e.g., pp. 13-15) in the National Academy of Sciences (NAS) and the Institute of Medicine (IOM)’s “Science, Evolution, and Creationism” report. It includes statements by Pope John Paul II, the Central Conference of American Rabbis, the Presbyterian General Assembly, and the Clergy Letter Project disputing the claim that evolution is in conflict with religious belief. I’m heartened to see that minister at my church has signed the latter.

So your observation is not necessarily in contradiction to [jcalor]'s statement. (just on the numbers) that she may believe in a higher power and not believe in creationism/intelligent design.

/Marg

p.s. I bet she follows germ theory too regardless of belief in God.

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[SpeedRacer 1]

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The consensus here is clear: more intelligent people tend not to believe in religion.

Based on the studies' findings, it would seem that the author is putting his own spin on the so-called "consensus."

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[Belgian_Draft 0]

Don't confuse education with intelligence. They can still be mutually exclusive, and often are.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[nerdgirl 0]

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http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-thinkingchristians.htm

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I am indebted to Jim Tims for summarizing this article. I have edited his summary for space reasons. Those wishing to see the original text are encouraged to read "The Effect of Intelligence on Religious Faith," Free Inquiry, Spring 1986.

That's a very interesting data set. To me, it's more curious as a historical archive/meta-analysis. For examining trends, it's a proverbial gold mine. How meaningful is data from 1927 w/r/t opinions/beliefs of today regarding religiousity?

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[stevebabin 0]

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Don't confuse education with intelligence. They can still be mutually exclusive, and often are.

You're right...Most of the studies dealt with IQ, not education level. My bad.

"Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings."
"Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up."

[Squeak 17]

All this from a post about Someone being pissed off about a billboard

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[TrophyHusband 0]

holy crap. thanks for all of that. i just skimmed it quickly and i will go over it all more in depth tommorrow (i've had about a bottle of wine, so i really can't absorb it right now). steve, if you had said there was a corrilation between intelligence and belief in god, i probably wouldn't even have responded because i would agree with that. education level is different from intelligence. i know md's and do's (don't know too many phd's) that i would consider stupid, they just have the ability to jump through the hoops. some of the most intelligent people i know don't have degrees. i also don't know any less-than-intelligent atheists.

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com