mnealtx 0 #26 November 17, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteThen you should have NO problems providing valid PROOF it's because of the presence of guns, shouldn't you? Here - I'll even give you a link to help. Watch carefully, though! clicky If you feel it necessary to make excuses for the FBI data, please go ahead although it does make you seem defensive; I WONDER WHY! I simply corrected Drew's statement. Lookie again at homicide rates (given above): Now, if you're claiming the higher rates in GA, FL, TX and SC are due to gangs and social problems not found in the UK, NJ, NY, CA, IL and WI, you'll just look silly. So prove it. As I recall, YOU were the one talking about VA guns and DC crimes... or was it the lawyers and congresscritters? I don't recall, now. I don't have to prove anything - the numbers speak for themselves. Ok - then DC, with it's high crime and gun ban is proof that the presence of guns don't cause crime. After all, the numbers speak for themselves.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #27 November 17, 2008 Quote39% of American homes have firearms. Our homicide rate is 8.95/100K. In Canada, 29.5% of the homes have firearms, about 3/4's as many, yet their homicide rate is 1.99/100K, or less than a 1/4 of ours. Does anyone have the statistics for Switzerland handy?-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #28 November 17, 2008 Quote39% of American homes have firearms. Our homicide rate is 8.95/100K. In Canada, 29.5% of the homes have firearms, about 3/4's as many, yet their homicide rate is 1.99/100K, or less than a 1/4 of ours. Ever watch an NHL game? The Canadians have their outlet; we have ours. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #29 November 17, 2008 QuoteQuote39% of American homes have firearms. Our homicide rate is 8.95/100K. In Canada, 29.5% of the homes have firearms, about 3/4's as many, yet their homicide rate is 1.99/100K, or less than a 1/4 of ours. Does anyone have the statistics for Switzerland handy? Switzerland is high gun ownership and low gun crime. The fact is, there are examples in all directions on this issue. High and low gun ownership, with high and low gun crime. The only conclusion that can logically be deduced is that there is no relationship between gun ownership levels and gun crime rates. And kallend knows that, but he's playing his little games again trying to fool the ignorant into believing otherwise. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #30 November 17, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuote39% of American homes have firearms. Our homicide rate is 8.95/100K. In Canada, 29.5% of the homes have firearms, about 3/4's as many, yet their homicide rate is 1.99/100K, or less than a 1/4 of ours. Does anyone have the statistics for Switzerland handy? Switzerland is high gun ownership and low gun crime. A rather simplistic half-truth. The nature of gun ownership and firearms training in Switzerland is very different from that in the USA. Apples and oranges.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #31 November 17, 2008 QuoteThe only conclusion that can logically be deduced is that there is no relationship between gun ownership levels and gun crime rates. Doesn't that presuppose that there is no correlation between usage of guns by those already emotionally inclined to be violent "in the heat of anger" and availability of guns to such people? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #32 November 17, 2008 QuoteQuoteThe only conclusion that can logically be deduced is that there is no relationship between gun ownership levels and gun crime rates. Doesn't that presuppose that there is no correlation between usage of guns by those already emotionally inclined to be violent "in the heat of anger" and availability of guns to such people? It presupposes an inclination to close one's eyes to the wealth of data showing a relationship between gun ownership and gun homicides, and between gun ownership and passage of guns into the hands of criminals. Remarkably few gun crimes are committed by people who are not in possession of a gun. Remarkably few guns are stolen from people who don't own guns.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 896 #33 November 17, 2008 So let's compare crime and criminal behavior entirely between the two countries....that would make much more sense. Our society has led to more crime than theirs, don't you really think the issue may lie there? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #34 November 17, 2008 QuoteSo let's compare crime and criminal behavior entirely between the two countries....that would make much more sense. OK, go ahead, give us the statistics Quote Our society has led to more crime than theirs, Statistics please. Quote don't you really think the issue may lie there? Are you saying our model for society is inferior? Our "more perfect union" is less perfect? SHAME! (Actually until I see the data you will present I'm inclined to reserve judgment )... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Belgian_Draft 0 #35 November 17, 2008 Quote Quote Quote The only conclusion that can logically be deduced is that there is no relationship between gun ownership levels and gun crime rates. Doesn't that presuppose that there is no correlation between usage of guns by those already emotionally inclined to be violent "in the heat of anger" and availability of guns to such people? It presupposes an inclination to close one's eyes to the wealth of data showing a relationship between gun ownership and gun homicides, and between gun ownership and passage of guns into the hands of criminals. Remarkably few gun tennis ball crimes are committed by people who are not in possession of a gun tennis ball. Remarkably few guns tennis balls are stolen from people who don't own guns tennis balls. I modified your remark to make a counterpoint.Though I am in agreement that the ease of acquisition of firearms has some influence upon the rate they are used in crimes, I also feel the data available is insufficient to make an accurate assessment of exactly what the level of influence is. One thing is for certain, though,...it is always easiest to place the liability of a problem on an inanimate object rather than human frailty.HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 896 #36 November 17, 2008 More suicides in Switzerland: Suicide More burglaries in the US: Burgle! and a quick peek at your favored Wiki would lead one to believe a lot of our crime in the US is drug related... Drug crimes hmmmmm...should we consider the economic environment of inner city crime as well??? It's all guns, you're right. Making them illegal in DC, NY and Chicago has worked perfectly hasn't it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #37 November 17, 2008 QuoteMore suicides in Switzerland: Suicide More burglaries in the US: Burgle! and a quick peek at your favored Wiki would lead one to believe a lot of our crime in the US is drug related... Drug crimes hmmmmm...should we consider the economic environment of inner city crime as well??? It's all guns, you're right. Making them illegal in DC, NY and Chicago has worked perfectly hasn't it? Nice bit of apples and orange cherry picking there, chief. How about comparing like with like - say USA vs UK or Germany (similar urban/rural mix). If you wish to stick with Switzerland, how about givin gus the data on number of handguns in circulation there (as opposed to long guns), handgun murders, and the firearms training required of all adult males. Handgun 1992 Handgun Murder Country Murders Population Rate (per 100,000) ----------------------------------------------------------- United States 13,429 254,521,000 5.28 Switzerland 97 6,828,023 1.42 Canada 128 27,351,509 0.47 Sweden 36 8,602,157 0.42 Australia 13 17,576,354 0.07 United Kingdom 33 57,797,514 0.06 Japan 60 124,460,481 0.05 Who has argued for making guns illegal, anyway? Just another STRAWMAN?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #38 November 17, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote The only conclusion that can logically be deduced is that there is no relationship between gun ownership levels and gun crime rates. Doesn't that presuppose that there is no correlation between usage of guns by those already emotionally inclined to be violent "in the heat of anger" and availability of guns to such people? It presupposes an inclination to close one's eyes to the wealth of data showing a relationship between gun ownership and gun homicides, and between gun ownership and passage of guns into the hands of criminals. Remarkably few gun tennis ball crimes are committed by people who are not in possession of a gun tennis ball. Remarkably few guns tennis balls are stolen from people who don't own guns tennis balls. I modified your remark to make a counterpoint., . How can a silly irrelevance be a counterpoint to anything? Criminals don't steal tennis balls to assist them with their nefarious activities. We don't have a national epidemic of tennis ball crimes.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #39 November 17, 2008 QuoteQuote39% of American homes have firearms. Our homicide rate is 8.95/100K. In Canada, 29.5% of the homes have firearms, about 3/4's as many, yet their homicide rate is 1.99/100K, or less than a 1/4 of ours. Does anyone have the statistics for Switzerland handy? John?---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 896 #40 November 17, 2008 shhh...he doesn't want to talk about Switzerland! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #41 November 17, 2008 I was struck by the fact the two most likely to answer Ton's question, were both named John. ---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Belgian_Draft 0 #42 November 17, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote The only conclusion that can logically be deduced is that there is no relationship between gun ownership levels and gun crime rates. Doesn't that presuppose that there is no correlation between usage of guns by those already emotionally inclined to be violent "in the heat of anger" and availability of guns to such people? It presupposes an inclination to close one's eyes to the wealth of data showing a relationship between gun ownership and gun homicides, and between gun ownership and passage of guns into the hands of criminals. Remarkably few gun tennis ball crimes are committed by people who are not in possession of a gun tennis ball. Remarkably few guns tennis balls are stolen from people who don't own guns tennis balls. I modified your remark to make a counterpoint., . How can a silly irrelevance be a counterpoint to anything? Criminals don't steal tennis balls to assist them with their nefarious activities. We don't have a national epidemic of tennis ball crimes. You completely missed the point. Substitute whatever object you want...tennis balls, forks, knives, cars, sticks, whatever. A gun is just an inanimate object. The analogy was and still is relevant to the argument.HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #43 November 17, 2008 QuoteQuoteThe only conclusion that can logically be deduced is that there is no relationship between gun ownership levels and gun crime rates. Doesn't that presuppose that there is no correlation between usage of guns by those already emotionally inclined to be violent "in the heat of anger" and availability of guns to such people? The supposition seems supported by the experience of every state that switched to a permissive CCW system. Dire predictions never panned out. The results of the 1994 AW ban and the subsequent expiration of such also showed no change in crime, even though it certainly affected the availability of those types of rifles. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallingOsh 0 #44 November 17, 2008 Quote If you wish to stick with Switzerland, how about givin gus the data on number of handguns in circulation there (as opposed to long guns), handgun murders, and the firearms training required of all adult males. Handgun 1992 Handgun Murder Country Murders Population Rate (per 100,000) ----------------------------------------------------------- United States 13,429 254,521,000 5.28 Switzerland 97 6,828,023 1.42 Canada 128 27,351,509 0.47 Sweden 36 8,602,157 0.42 Australia 13 17,576,354 0.07 United Kingdom 33 57,797,514 0.06 Japan 60 124,460,481 0.05 Who has argued for making guns illegal, anyway? Just another STRAWMAN? What's the number of hand guns per 100k in those countries and what training is required? -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #45 November 17, 2008 Quote shhh...he doesn't want to talk about Switzerland! Did you blink, Chief? www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3396595#3396595 Regardless of which, Switzerland is not comparable to the USA for many reasons: The % of households with firearms is actually comparable to that of Canada (27.2%) rather than the US. There is strict screening of army officers who represent the majority of gun owners. Guns must be kept locked. Ammunition is rationed (72 rounds), required to be stored in sealed boxes, to be inspected regularly, and to be accounted for. The vast majority of firearms are NOT handguns. When handgun murder rate is compared, Switzerland looks piss-poor compared to tbe rest of western Europe (nearly as bad as the USA).... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #46 November 17, 2008 QuoteQuote If you wish to stick with Switzerland, how about givin gus the data on number of handguns in circulation there (as opposed to long guns), handgun murders, and the firearms training required of all adult males. Handgun 1992 Handgun Murder Country Murders Population Rate (per 100,000) ----------------------------------------------------------- United States 13,429 254,521,000 5.28 Switzerland 97 6,828,023 1.42 Canada 128 27,351,509 0.47 Sweden 36 8,602,157 0.42 Australia 13 17,576,354 0.07 United Kingdom 33 57,797,514 0.06 Japan 60 124,460,481 0.05 Who has argued for making guns illegal, anyway? Just another STRAWMAN? What's the number of hand guns per 100k in those countries and what training is required? Why don't you look it up and report back to us?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 896 #47 November 17, 2008 No blinks here Sarge. I'm not the one who introduced Switzerland into the discussion, I simply carried on with said subject matter. You always seem to move the discussion around when it doesn't fit your desired model. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #48 November 17, 2008 Quote You always seem to move the discussion around when it doesn't fit your desired model. It's like playing pin the tail on the donkey. Except the blindfold is replaced with meaningless information and the donkey keeps moving ... "That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #49 November 17, 2008 QuoteNo blinks here Sarge. I'm not the one who introduced Switzerland into the discussion, I simply carried on with said subject matter. You always seem to move the discussion around when it doesn't fit your desired model. I didn't introduce it either. TomAiello did, with a misleading follow on from JR. Once introduced, it's fair game for discussion.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #50 November 17, 2008 Quote Quote You always seem to move the discussion around when it doesn't fit your desired model. It's like playing pin the tail on the donkey. Except the blindfold is replaced with meaningless information and the donkey keeps moving ... Save your whining for TomAiello and John Rich. I did NOT introduce Switzerland to the discussion, they did. www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3396354#3396354... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
