Bush authorized Pentagon to strike Al-Qaeda in any country

[rushmc 23]

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Me or the other guy?

The other guy. My spider sense is going crazy over this guy.

Hope it is not just my meds wearing off

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[AggieDave 6]

I understand, we've been PMing back and forth. Its actually quite interesting. He believes strongly in what he believes in, even if I believe that he has been seriously mislead and has his head in the sand.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[LOSTandCRAZY 0]

Personally, I don't care how long the wars go back. I'm not a fan of anyone killing anyone, I'm just hired to analyze both sides of a situation.

Muslims, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Catholics, Kwaanzites, whoemever... you guys can keep killing each other forever. I don't give a shit.

Just quit doing it in my back yard, I hate looking in to this shit. Go to Argentenia, and do this shit. Have at it,. all day long.

Then, I can take some vacation days, chill with my kids, skydive EVERY Saturday, and still be able to make my kid's softball game.

Goddamn you fuckers for interrupting REAL life with your silly bullshit!

Solve your problems. Talk about them. I don't agree with the state ofthe world either. It SUCKS! It sucks ASS! Aren't you supposed to pray to your God for peace in your mind?

Well let ME have some fucking peace of mind, and quit fucking killing each other!!!

SHIT!

"Get these balls!"

[kelpdiver 2]

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What happens to EVERY military occupation of a country since the beginning of time?

Nothing. As is true of most comments with "every" in it.

The US colonized the rest of what is now America.

Spain may have left Latin America, but it nearly all speaks Spanish, and its influences are much more significant then the still present native people.

[quade 4]

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I will admit that this thread and your posts are surprising the hell out of me.

They shouldn't. If they do then maybe it's because you've missed or been blinded by other things I've said. I've always been very much for going after OBL and among the reasons I am pissed about Iraq is that it diverted critical resources and attention away from that goal. In fact, there was a very brief period of time when we were going into Iraq where I was almost ok with it, but only because we didn't know we had been lied to. Once those lies became apparent, it became the unforgivable sin of the Bush Administration.

This forum had a similar discussion a couple of months ago when we started fooling around in Pakistan. I said at that time essentially what I've said in this thread.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[happythoughts 0]

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Call me the Devil's advocate, but Clinton LEFT Mr. Bush with a "clear and concise plan to deal with Al-Qaeda:

"One official who helped to prepare the briefing, which included a PowerPoint presentation, described it as a “10 on a scale of 1 to 10″ that “connected the dots” in earlier intelligence reports to present a stark warning that al-Qaida, which had already killed Americans in Yemen, Saudi Arabia and East Africa, was poised to strike again…"

" but Clinton LEFT Mr. Bush with..."

Yes, he did. What was Mr. Clintons response to...
Yemen, SA, Kenya, Nairobi...

There is an entire laundry list. Repeated attacks against US interests. Warships, embassies, everywhere... (and crickets chirping)

Clinton DID leave it for Bush after he did nothing (in response) for 8 years.

As OBL himself said, he expected to go to Somalia and fight for years, but instead, Clinton pulled out immediately.
OBL referred to the US as a "paper tiger".

Clintons inactions through the years, set the stage for 9/11.
He destroyed US military credibility around the world.
Terrorists felt that they could attack the US.

The biggest Do-Nothing president ever.

[quade 4]

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As OBL himself said, he expected to go to Somalia and fight for years, but instead, Clinton pulled out immediately.
OBL referred to the US as a "paper tiger".

I'm sure his opinion of the US has changed in the last 8 years. What with OBL rotting in prison and all. He sure showed him!

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The biggest Do-Nothing president ever.

Between "do nothing" and "fucks everything up" . . . I'll take a do nothing President just about every time.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[happythoughts 0]

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The biggest Do-Nothing president ever.

Between "do nothing" and "fucks everything up" . . . I'll take a do nothing President just about every time.

I was just trying to agree with him.

He stated that Clinton left Bush information on all the situations that Clinton had avoided for 8 years.

I was pointing out that if it was all so urgent, why don't we have an example of Clinton every doing anything about it?

You have two have the same logical flaw.
You have no problem giving Clinton a pass on everything, but somehow Bush has to have accountability for every action during his administration.

Clinton had 8 years to handle Afghanistan and OBL.
Somehow, Bush gets criticism for not cleaning up Clintons messes in some perfect fashion.

If you can't see the unfairness in that...

[happythoughts 0]

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As OBL himself said, he expected to go to Somalia and fight for years, but instead, Clinton pulled out immediately.
OBL referred to the US as a "paper tiger".

I'm sure his opinion of the US has changed in the last 8 years. What with OBL rotting in prison and all. He sure showed him!

We were discussing general respect for the US military and repercussions for their actions.

AQ membership is concerned about being found by the US military these days. That is a large change from the Clinton days of zero action.

[quade 4]

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If you can't see the unfairness in that...

Except the two aren't equivalent.

As bad as, for instance, the USS Cole bombing was, the response to it could not have been much more than what was done. A terrorist attack that kills 17 can not realistically be responded to with a full scale invasion of a country (Sudan) in an attempt to catch the perpetrators.

To say that, "Clinton DID leave it for Bush after he did nothing (in response) for 8 years" is incorrect.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/clinton.asp

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[happythoughts 0]

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If you can't see the unfairness in that...

Except the two aren't equivalent.

As bad as, for instance, the USS Cole bombing was, the response to it could not have been much more than what was done. A terrorist attack that kills 17 can not realistically be responded to with a full scale invasion of a country (Sudan) in an attempt to catch the perpetrators.

To say that, "Clinton DID leave it for Bush after he did nothing (in response) for 8 years" is incorrect.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/clinton.asp

If you actually read the Snopes link, you would find:

1993 WTC - 4 people sentenced.

1995 Saudi Arabia - the SA authorities caught them.

1996 SA - the SA authorities caught them.

1998 Africa - they blew up 4 embassies.
We sentenced 4 to jail. 10 years ago, the other 14 are still free.

2000 USS Cole - probably too late for him to do anything.


The Saudis did most of the work it sounds like.
In fact, they wouldn't allow the US to be part of it.

I'm sure that Clinton had a great tv appearance and photo op and his hair look marvelous.

If Clinton had went to in Afghanistan in 1995 (or better yet, 1993), OBL would have had other priorities.
He was an MTV president, he should have been on the Real World show.

[akarunway 1]

" Its about an entire coalition of groups with a single goal: to control the entire world with radical Islam." ___________________________________________________ And the U.S trying to control the worlds resources thru military power paid for by the taxpayers for the benefit of the fat cats is any better?. Why do you think the fuckers hate us? Gimme a break.

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[JackC 0]

If a foreign government attacked something on American soil, you'd all be baying for blood and you know it. But it's a great idea if America does it to someone else. The hypocrisy of that is fucking disgraceful.

[quade 4]

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If a foreign government attacked something on American soil, you'd all be baying for blood and you know it. But it's a great idea if America does it to someone else. The hypocrisy of that is fucking disgraceful.

Mexico wants to come up hear and take out some of their criminals, I'm not going to have a problem with that at all. Same goes for Canada or any other country. If the Saudis want to come in and kill any Saudi terrorist cells they know of that might be lurking about, let them have at it. Hell, lemme know and I'll help them any way I can. If they injure some US citizens while doing it, then we have a problem.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[JackC 0]

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Mexico wants to come up hear and take out some of their criminals, I'm not going to have a problem with that at all. Same goes for Canada or any other country. If the Saudis want to come in and kill any Saudi terrorist cells they know of that might be lurking about, let them have at it. Hell, lemme know and I'll help them any way I can. If they injure some US citizens while doing it, then we have a problem.

I have no problem with operations carried out with the cooperation of that country's security forces but Americas favoured weapon seems to be the airstrike and that quite understandably pisses people off. If someone started lobbing missiles at the US mainland, how do you think that would be recieved?

[AggieDave 6]

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Why do you think the fuckers hate us?

Because we're not Muslim. They don't even like Muslims who don't believe the radical firebrand of hate that they believe in.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[JackC 0]

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Why do you think the fuckers hate us?

Because we're not Muslim. They don't even like Muslims who don't believe the radical firebrand of hate that they believe in.

There are some who hate the US because you're not muslim, just like there are some US citizens who hate muslims. But the average person in whatever-istan doesn't much give a shit either way, they just want to get on with their lives. But if the US drops a Cruise missile on their heads, they'll hate you for it. It's not just about being Muslim, it's also about hating the assholes who bomb you.

[rushmc 23]

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I will admit that this thread and your posts are surprising the hell out of me.

They shouldn't. If they do then maybe it's because you've missed or been blinded by other things I've said. I've always been very much for going after OBL and among the reasons I am pissed about Iraq is that it diverted critical resources and attention away from that goal. In fact, there was a very brief period of time when we were going into Iraq where I was almost ok with it, but only because we didn't know we had been lied to. Once those lies became apparent, it became the unforgivable sin of the Bush Administration.

This forum had a similar discussion a couple of months ago when we started fooling around in Pakistan. I said at that time essentially what I've said in this thread.

You may have nailed one of many reasons but in any event, I have learned something

Thanks

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

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" Its about an entire coalition of groups with a single goal: to control the entire world with radical Islam." ___________________________________________________ And the U.S trying to control the worlds resources thru military power paid for by the taxpayers for the benefit of the fat cats is any better?. Why do you think the fuckers hate us? Gimme a break.

A break you shall have but, the "hatred" you like to spit about happened way before and had little to do with US policy and actions.

To fully understand that you need only read the book that is their bible.

Now, I am not saying we may have fanned the fire but to lay blame the way you want to? Give me a break

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

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Why do you think the fuckers hate us?

Because we're not Muslim. They don't even like Muslims who don't believe the radical firebrand of hate that they believe in.

There are some who hate the US because you're not muslim, just like there are some US citizens who hate muslims. But the average person in whatever-istan doesn't much give a shit either way, they just want to get on with their lives. But if the US drops a Cruise missile on their heads, they'll hate you for it. It's not just about being Muslim, it's also about hating the assholes who bomb you.

You are correct in the "average person" perspective but, the "average person" is not the ones controling the guns and bombs. The "average person" is not the one teaching the children of the "average person". Their "average persons" arenot in control of their way of life and governments (at athe small local level. The "average person" IS being controled (maybe limited and handled) by those with said munitions thorugh intimidation and threat of violence.

Really changes the way is has to be looked at.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[JackC 0]

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You are correct in the "average person" perspective but, the "average person" is not the ones controling the guns and bombs. The "average person" is not the one teaching the children of the "average person". Their "average persons" arenot in control of their way of life and governments (at athe small local level. The "average person" IS being controled (maybe limited and handled) by those with said munitions thorugh intimidation and threat of violence.

Really changes the way is has to be looked at.

Right, but if you want to help change the "average person" into a fundamentalist USA hating terrorist whackjob, just bomb his kids.

How would you react if the UK government sent the SAS into downtown Boston MA to slot a few IRA sympathisers or blow up a couple of compounds in Oregon? Does that change the way it has to be looked at?

[rushmc 23]

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You are correct in the "average person" perspective but, the "average person" is not the ones controling the guns and bombs. The "average person" is not the one teaching the children of the "average person". Their "average persons" arenot in control of their way of life and governments (at athe small local level. The "average person" IS being controled (maybe limited and handled) by those with said munitions thorugh intimidation and threat of violence.

Really changes the way is has to be looked at.

Right, but if you want to help change the "average person" into a fundamentalist USA hating terrorist whackjob, just bomb his kids.

How would you react if the UK government sent the SAS into downtown Boston MA to slot a few IRA sympathisers or blow up a couple of compounds in Oregon? Does that change the way it has to be looked at?

There are extreem examples in every circumstance. You use one here. Does not change anything.

On the other hand, if a group of people alow thenselves to be used as shields what other options do you have?

I and you know it is more complex than your post suggests

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[JackC 0]

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There are extreem examples in every circumstance. You use one here. Does not change anything.

On the other hand, if a group of people alow thenselves to be used as shields what other options do you have?

I and you know it is more complex than your post suggests

No it's not more complicated. The SAS slotting IRA members in Boston is no different to Navy SEALS slotting Al Qaeda members in Pakistan. And if you're OK with a bit of collateral damage because people are stupid enough to allow themselves to be used as human sheilds, you'd have no objections to using Cruise missiles in either case. No thanks mate, not acceptable.

[riddler 0]

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If a foreign government attacked something on American soil, you'd all be baying for blood and you know it. But it's a great idea if America does it to someone else. The hypocrisy of that is fucking disgraceful.

That is exactly the hypocrisy - I'm glad you see that. Other countries should not attack the U.S., and in kind, we should not invade other countries. Sound reasonable?

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[riddler 0]

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OBL is standing across the border. He's standing directly under a sign with a big arrow pointing at him that says, "Yep. It's me!" He's waving at you. He's less than 100 yards away, you have him in your sights, you have a clear shot.

Still believe in the other country's absolute sovereignty?

Yep. OBL is standing in Canada, in the middle of a school full of schoolkids. POTUS does not even ask - he orders missile strikes that kill the schoolkids, but we find out that our intelligence is wrong, and it was only a really tall guy with a beard that looked like OBL. Still believe is US military intelligence?

Extreme examples can go both ways.

The point is that Bush believes that it is OK to go into any country at any time and kill people without prior consent from that government. If anyone else did that to us, it would be war (and rightly so).

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD