rushmc 23 #101 November 6, 2008 QuoteQuote... does it matter if it is called marriage? Why don't you answer your own question ... does it matter to you if it is called marriage? If so, why? Hmm, you will not answer it either I see...."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #102 November 6, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuote... does it matter if it is called marriage? Why don't you answer your own question ... does it matter to you if it is called marriage? If so, why? Hmm, you will not answer it either I see.... No, it doesn't matter. Your turn ..."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BikerBabe 0 #103 November 6, 2008 QuoteLook, I asked a question that no one has yet answered. If (and I think they should be) same sex partners had a legal paper/doc/process/ whatever way of getting the same rights as a married man and women, does it matter if it is called marriage? It's been answered a lot, but i'll do so again. No. call them civil unions. I don't care. HOWEVER! until civil unions grant the exact same rights that marriage does, then we are just perpetuating "separate but equal" all over again. So we are back to changing language in current and future laws to say "civil union" as opposed to "married" and "civil partner" as opposed to "spouse". Do you SEE the issue? Any law that currently is on the books that refers to marriage, married people, spouses, etc, are currently excluding gays, since they cannot get legally "married".Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #104 November 6, 2008 QuoteQuoteLook, I asked a question that no one has yet answered. If (and I think they should be) same sex partners had a legal paper/doc/process/ whatever way of getting the same rights as a married man and women, does it matter if it is called marriage? It's been answered a lot, but i'll do so again. No. call them civil unions. I don't care. HOWEVER! until civil unions grant the exact same rights that marriage does, then we are just perpetuating "separate but equal" all over again. So we are back to changing language in current and future laws to say "civil union" as opposed to "married" and "civil partner" as opposed to "spouse". Do you SEE the issue? Any law that currently is on the books that refers to marriage, married people, spouses, etc, are currently excluding gays, since they cannot get legally "married". Well, while seeing your point I do not agree. the word is important as are the rights to both sides. But attacking an institution for what ever purpose has dangers in itself."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BikerBabe 0 #105 November 6, 2008 then how do YOU propose allowing them to declare themselves life partners and be afforded the exact same rights as "married" hetero couples? No separate but equal, different language stuff here, either. You know how lawyers are, and if a law says "married" and a gay couple tries to exercise the right listed under said law, you KNOW someone will challenge it, civil union or not. So give us a solution. Unless, of course, you don't believe they should be afforded the same rights after declaring to spend their lives together, emotionally, financially, etc.Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #106 November 6, 2008 Quote the word is important as are the rights to both sides. It appears that it does matter to you if it is called marriage. Why?"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #107 November 6, 2008 QuoteIf (and I think they should be) same sex partners had a legal paper/doc/process/ whatever way of getting the same rights as a married man and women, does it matter if it is called marriage? If the legal piece of paper that they get has different wording on it than does the legal piece of paper that you get, then yes, it does matter. Treating people differently based on sexual orientation is discrimination. Why should it matter to heterosexual couples if the legal piece of paper they get doesn't have the word marriage on it? Again, try not to reference ancient religious documents or "the way it's always been"... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #108 November 6, 2008 Quote Er... that would be "Bob and I" and "Jane and I". Really? You and Bob? How long have you and Bob been involved? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #109 November 6, 2008 QuoteQuote the word is important as are the rights to both sides. It appears that it does matter to you if it is called marriage. Why? Yes, I do think it does but not because that should be used to keep couples in an unequal position before the law. More because of what I see as an attack on the institution. In the end I believe the left will win. But the left also screams about the will of the people. I think the "people" of CA have spoken at this point. So what is next? The left will use the courts to try and overturn the will of the people. Ironic dont you think?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #110 November 6, 2008 Quote If anybody can answer those questions without references to ancient religious texts and/or "the way it's always been", I'll be truly amazed. I'm not sure why one would need to exclude ancient religious texts. Imagine two churches, side by side, both of which espouse marriage (pun intended) as the only way to legitimize a relationship before God, and one of them does so regardless of genders (see Prop 8 opponent and minister here). If the government steps in and says that one church may implement 100% of their doctrine and the other may not, how is that *not* prohibiting the free exercise of religion? I'm guessing the argument against my position is likely similar to whatever legal means were employed to outlaw Mormon polygamy, and I'm unaware of what that is. Then again, it likely wouldn't convince me, as I also consider that an abridgement of freedom of religion. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #111 November 6, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuote the word is important as are the rights to both sides. It appears that it does matter to you if it is called marriage. Why? Yes, I do think it does Wonderful. So do they. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #112 November 6, 2008 QuoteMore because of what I see as an attack on the institution. Do you consider the current divorce rate (amongst heterosexuals) to be an attack on the institution? Also, what is wrong with attacking institutions?"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #113 November 6, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote the word is important as are the rights to both sides. It appears that it does matter to you if it is called marriage. Why? Yes, I do think it does Wonderful. So do they. Blues, Dave As do those living in CA huh?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #114 November 6, 2008 QuoteQuoteMore because of what I see as an attack on the institution. Do you consider the current divorce rate (amongst heterosexuals) to be an attack on the institution? Also, what is wrong with attacking institutions? Not really. I believe that to be more of a refection of the direction of our society. Lack of responciblity, morality (where ever it come from) and those looking at selfish desires"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #115 November 6, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote the word is important as are the rights to both sides. It appears that it does matter to you if it is called marriage. Why? Yes, I do think it does Wonderful. So do they. As do those living in CA huh? Yep. Now here comes the tricky part. You have to pick one argument, either the word does matter (to you) or the word shouldn't matter (to the gays). You've said both in this thread. Which is it? Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #116 November 6, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteMore because of what I see as an attack on the institution. Do you consider the current divorce rate (amongst heterosexuals) to be an attack on the institution? Also, what is wrong with attacking institutions? Not really. I believe that to be more of a refection of the direction of our society. Lack of responciblity, morality (where ever it come from) and those looking at selfish desires The point is that the institution no longer promotes a positive social order and cooperation or governs the behavior individuals and thus it should be destroyed and a new institution created in its place ..."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #117 November 6, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote the word is important as are the rights to both sides. It appears that it does matter to you if it is called marriage. Why? Yes, I do think it does Wonderful. So do they. As do those living in CA huh? Yep. Now here comes the tricky part. You have to pick one argument, either the word does matter (to you) or the word shouldn't matter (to the gays). You've said both in this thread. Which is it? Blues, Dave Not sure how you got this but, it matters to me. I think it represents something important. Changing its "meaning" by including a union between something other than a man or women is an attack on that IMO"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #118 November 6, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteMore because of what I see as an attack on the institution. Do you consider the current divorce rate (amongst heterosexuals) to be an attack on the institution? Also, what is wrong with attacking institutions? Not really. I believe that to be more of a refection of the direction of our society. Lack of responciblity, morality (where ever it come from) and those looking at selfish desires The point is that the institution no longer promotes a positive social order and cooperation or governs the behavior individuals and thus it should be destroyed and a new institution created in its place ... I do not agree. Further more I believe a position like this is dangerous and destructive"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #119 November 6, 2008 QuoteWhile discussing California's Prop H8 with some friends last night, one of them proposed something that even the guy who voted yes thought was a good idea. Perhaps it's time to rename the CIVIL portion of what we call marriage? As it is now, you go to the government to get a marriage license, then you can go have a ceremony in a place and following whatever religious tradition (or not) that you choose. The core of my friends idea is to change the wording on what you get from the courthouse from "marriage license" to "certificate of domestic partnership." All couples, regardless of race or gender, would receive the same legal benefits and have the same legal obligations. We then reserve the term "marriage" for those with religious beliefs, thus allowing each religion to define that word as they choose and follow whatever traditions they have established. As I see it, something along these lines would do several good things. It would increase separation of church and state. It would discriminate against no one. And it doesn't attempt to apply one religion's moral code upon the entire population. How would that civil union be treated in relation to that legal court thing where you do not have to testify against a "spouse?" How does it work nowadays for domestic partners? Where is that Rocket named Law?" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #120 November 6, 2008 QuoteIt's just a wedge issue being used by some very devious people for a couple of selfish reasons but chiefly it helps get out the religious conservative vote and therefore GREATLY helps the Republican party. yeah, that wacky Kallend, always trying to get out the religious vote to help the Reps ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #121 November 6, 2008 QuoteThere's a guy arguing with a LAWYER over the use of words . . . . . . heh . . . this isn't going to be pretty. no one that skydives should be afraid of a lawyer - worst he can do is bore me to death. And they hardly have a monopoly on linguistics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #122 November 6, 2008 QuoteChanging its "meaning" by including a union between something other than a man or women is an attack on that IMO You do realize that its "meaning" was changed to exclude a union between something other than a man and a woman ... what do you think about that attack?"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #123 November 6, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote the word is important as are the rights to both sides. It appears that it does matter to you if it is called marriage. Why? Yes, I do think it does Wonderful. So do they. As do those living in CA huh? Yep. Now here comes the tricky part. You have to pick one argument, either the word does matter (to you) or the word shouldn't matter (to the gays). You've said both in this thread. Which is it? Blues, Dave Not sure how you got this but, it matters to me. I think it represents something important. Changing its "meaning" by including a union between something other than a man or women is an attack on that IMO You said in this post: QuoteLook, I asked a question that no one has yet answered. If (and I think they should be) same sex partners had a legal paper/doc/process/ whatever way of getting the same rights as a married man and women, does it matter if it is called marriage? Now I could be wrong, but it sounds to me like what you're implying is that as long as same sex partners get the same rights, it shouldn't matter whether it is called marriage. You go on to argue in later posts that it DOES matter if it is called marriage. In your quote above, did you mean to imply something other than "as long as they get the same rights, the name shouldn't matter"? Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #124 November 6, 2008 Quoteno one that skydives should be afraid of a lawyer - worst he can do is bore me to death. And they hardly have a monopoly on linguistics. I would say you're probably wrong in your first assumption. While there may be some excellent wordsmiths and parsers in the skydiving community, my guess is that there is a MUCH higher percentage of lawyers that can handle the language than skydivers as a whole. And you're 100% absolutely correct about lawyers not having a monopoly on linguistics. The general public should probably also not get into a battle of words with, for instance, professional stand up comics. It's not that they don't have a grasp of the language, but the person that does it for a living is probably going to win over the heckler. He just has more practice.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #125 November 6, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote the word is important as are the rights to both sides. It appears that it does matter to you if it is called marriage. Why? Yes, I do think it does Wonderful. So do they. As do those living in CA huh? Yep. Now here comes the tricky part. You have to pick one argument, either the word does matter (to you) or the word shouldn't matter (to the gays). You've said both in this thread. Which is it? Blues, Dave Not sure how you got this but, it matters to me. I think it represents something important. Changing its "meaning" by including a union between something other than a man or women is an attack on that IMO You said in this post: QuoteLook, I asked a question that no one has yet answered. If (and I think they should be) same sex partners had a legal paper/doc/process/ whatever way of getting the same rights as a married man and women, does it matter if it is called marriage? Now I could be wrong, but it sounds to me like what you're implying is that as long as same sex partners get the same rights, it shouldn't matter whether it is called marriage. You go on to argue in later posts that it DOES matter if it is called marriage. In your quote above, did you mean to imply something other than "as long as they get the same rights, the name shouldn't matter"? Blues, Dave No, I stated I think they should be allowed the same rights under the law. I just dont think it should be called a marriage"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
