Roe v. Wade in the 3rd Debate

[downwardspiral 0]

Quote

"YOU ARE PRO-ABORTION"

I AM PRO-ABORTION! In fact my girlfriend and I get a pretty big discount from her docter due to quantity. Of course since I'm the man in the relationship, the $200 every month for the abortion is killing my skydiving habit but hell it's a lot easier than OTHER forms of birth control.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[billvon 3,108]

>If it is not one of these two things, what is the definition of Abortion?

Abortion is a medical procedure that terminates a pregnancy.

There is no question whatsoever that a fetus is alive, just as sperm and egg cells are alive, and just as your liver is alive. That doesn't mean that you could go to jail if you use an IUD or get a kidney removed because it becomes cancerous.

The question is at what point does it become a human being with all the rights that any other child has. Arguably, before implantation, it is certainly not - it is just a fertilized egg that the mother's body will probably flush out. (Most fertilized eggs do not implant.) At 8 months it almost certainly is.

So where is that line crossed? One could argue it is crossed when the one thing that makes us uniquely human begins - the mind. Organized neural activity begins at around 8-12 weeks in fetuses. Or perhaps viability is the line, which happens sometime after 21 weeks.

[Amazon 7]

Quote

Rape is a HORRABLE thing and the DICKHEAD should be castrated, but the unborn baby did NOTHING wrong, so why kill it?

If a drunk driver crashes into you and you become paralized, should you be allowed to kill your children because you can no longer take care of them?

I would just like to know who the hell put YOUR MORALITY in charge of the world.




We are a SOCIETY based on LAW. If you do not like the laws we live under then work to change them. Pardon the rest of us if we choose to work against such Orwellian ideas of forcing women who are raped to bear your children. I was under the opinion that that sort of mentality went out with pillaging and raping. Good to know you wish to bring that those days back. Anyone else want to join him in a wonderful 7th century Caliphate mentality???


I am NOT pro abortion.. I AM pro-choice.

Do I think it should be a form of birth control??? Not on YOUR life. Conception could be a life.. IF a lot of factors work. Conception is a POSSIBLE life, one that all too frequently does not end up in a viable pregnancy.

If a woman does not wish to carry the offspring of some man she should not be forced to....period.

If they are in a committed relationship and have agreed to bring a child into the world together.. then he gets a say in the matter and NEVER at any other time.

It seems to me that many of the pro-life movement are fine to return women to their status in sexual slavery... or punishment for thier sins of having sex outside of holy matrimony.

Why is it usually those in the SUPPOSED pro-life( also pro war and pro death penalty) movement who also want to teach abstinence or supply NO BIRTH CONTROL at all. ITs all based on YOUR dated sense of morality. You seek to punish ANY woman who is not blessed with the institution of marriage.

[klingeme 1]

Quote

Why is it usually those in the SUPPOSED pro-life( also pro war and pro death penalty) movement who also want to teach abstinence or supply NO BIRTH CONTROL at all. ITs all based on YOUR dated sense of morality. You seek to punish ANY woman who is not blessed with the institution of marriage.

I'm not "pro war" but do think we should finish what we start rather than abandoning it. I am pro death penalty. If you willingly and knowingly kill someone who meant you no harm, you too deserve to die.

I happen to be all for "responsibility" to avoid getting pregnant, but if you end up getting pregnant, you knew the conciquences before you had sex. If the woman decides she wants to have a kid (conceived out of wed lock) the man is on the hook for the rest of his life paying for it regardless of if he wants it. If a woman decides it'll be too much trouble, but the man is will ing to take care of the kid, he has NO choice.

I understand....women want equality except for when it is not convienient.

Mark Klingelhoefer

[n23x 0]

Quit dancing around the bush and just admit that this is a baby.

Looks cuddly.
.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[n23x 0]

Quote

If a woman decides it'll be too much trouble, but the man is will ing to take care of the kid, he has NO choice.

Perhaps when the man has the ability to carry the fertilized egg to term, he can be more involved in that decision.

.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[SpeedRacer 1]

This is something I wonder about.

If you've got a full-fledged human being at the moment of conception, with all that that entails, here's what you need to consider: Over half of zygotes fail to implant in the uterus. Often the pregancy terminates and the woman never even knew she was pregnant because it happens so soon.

So women are just throwing their tampons in the trash, without giving them a proper burial, complete with tombstone, mourners, and a proper funeral. Is it OK to just throw your baby in the garbage & set it out on the curb?


Older interpretations of when human life begins,
The Quickening http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quickening

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[klingeme 1]

Quote

This is something I wonder about.

If you've got a full-fledged human being at the moment of conception, with all that that entails, here's what you need to consider: Over half of zygotes fail to implant in the uterus. Often the pregancy terminates and the woman never even knew she was pregnant because it happens so soon.

So women are just throwing their tampons in the trash, without giving them a proper burial, complete with tombstone, mourners, and a proper funeral. Is it OK to just throw your baby in the garbage & set it out on the curb?


Older interpretations of when human life begins,
The Quickening http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quickening

and some babies die at birth. Just because all the family and friends don't come to the funeral does not make it any less tragic. After a baby is born, it “makes bonds” with whomever it comes in contact with (be them large or small) Up until birth, only one person has a real “bond” with the baby is the mother. If she chooses to have a “ceremony” because of a miscarriage, I have not problem with that.

A child that dies at 2 weeks will have many less people “grieving” it that a 16 year old that dies. It’s all about the relationships they were able to form.

[Amazon 7]

Quote

I'm not "pro war" but do think we should finish what we start rather than abandoning it. I am pro death penalty. If you willingly and knowingly kill someone who meant you no harm, you too deserve to die.

I happen to be all for "responsibility" to avoid getting pregnant, but if you end up getting pregnant, you knew the conciquences before you had sex. If the woman decides she wants to have a kid (conceived out of wed lock) the man is on the hook for the rest of his life paying for it regardless of if he wants it. If a woman decides it'll be too much trouble, but the man is will ing to take care of the kid, he has NO choice.

I understand....women want equality except for when it is not convienient.

[klingeme 1]

Quote

I am NOT pro abortion.. I AM pro-choice.

Do I think it should be a form of birth control??? Not on YOUR life. Conception could be a life..

And why is it OK for a 16 year old that has sex and gets pregnant to have an abortion so she does not screw up the rest of her life, but if you are 25-30 and making a good living, and happen to get pregnant, you should not be able to use it as "convienient birth control"/


Its either ending a life or not. it IS black and white.

[Amazon 7]

Quote

And why is it OK for a 16 year old that has sex and gets pregnant to have an abortion so she does not screw up the rest of her life, but if you are 25-30 and making a good living, and happen to get pregnant, you should not be able to use it as "convienient birth control"/


Its either ending a life or not. it IS black and white.
.

Uh you did a very poor job of actually quoting me now didn't you.

I said....

Quote

I am NOT pro abortion.. I AM pro-choice.

Do I think it should be a form of birth control??? Not on YOUR life. Conception could be a life..IF a lot of factors work. Conception is a POSSIBLE life, one that all too frequently does not end up in a viable pregnancy.

What gives YOU the right to decide for ANYONE else..

Last time I checked human being were given free will to follow what GOD has dictated for each of us... and they will be judged accordingly... Why are YOU usurping GOD's job?

http://www.bartleby.com/108/40/7.html

Judging Others

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. Mk. 4.24

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

[skydyvr 0]

Quote

. . . it IS black and white.

How come you never address people's arguments about pushing your moral values on everyone else?

Do you think it would be ok if your perspectives on the topic became the law of the land?

. . =(_8^(1)

[klingeme 1]

Quote

Quote

And why is it OK for a 16 year old that has sex and gets pregnant to have an abortion so she does not screw up the rest of her life, but if you are 25-30 and making a good living, and happen to get pregnant, you should not be able to use it as "convienient birth control"/


Its either ending a life or not. it IS black and white.
.

Uh you did a very poor job of actually quoting me now didn't you.

I said....

Quote

I am NOT pro abortion.. I AM pro-choice.

Do I think it should be a form of birth control??? Not on YOUR life. Conception could be a life..IF a lot of factors work. Conception is a POSSIBLE life, one that all too frequently does not end up in a viable pregnancy.

What gives YOU the right to decide for ANYONE else..

Last time I checked human being were given free will to follow what GOD has dictated for each of us... and they will be judged accordingly... Why are YOU usurping GOD's job?

http://www.bartleby.com/108/40/7.html

Judging Others

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. Mk. 4.24

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

By your assumption, we should not punish people for murder or theft or anything else cause "God will get them in the end".

I still do not understand the "Pro Choice but anti abortion" crowd. If Abortion is the termination of a life which I believe it is, Abortion is Wrong and Murder.

If this is not the case and the "Choice" is not ending a life, why not use it as birth control. I don't see how it can be Grey. it's either life or not, therefore, it's either ending a life or not.

Mark

[Amazon 7]

Quote

If this is not the case and the "Choice" is not ending a life, why not use it as birth control. I don't see how it can be Grey. it's either life or not, therefore, it's either ending a life or not.

That is not OUR problem.. it is yours.

[klingeme 1]

Quote

Quote

If this is not the case and the "Choice" is not ending a life, why not use it as birth control. I don't see how it can be Grey. it's either life or not, therefore, it's either ending a life or not.

That is not OUR problem.. it is yours.

Sounds like situational morality.

[n23x 0]

Quote

Up until birth, only one person has a real “bond” with the baby is the mother.

Quote

A child that dies at 2 weeks will have many less people “grieving” it that a 16 year old that dies. It’s all about the relationships they were able to form.

So, since we're working on a time weighted scale here, is an early first trimester abortion as heinous as a partial birth abortion? What about a recently fertilized egg?

You seem (on the verge of) admitting there are differences for each case, and yet you cannot see a grey area w/r/t abortions?

.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[billvon 3,108]

>and some babies die at birth. Just because all the family and friends
>don't come to the funeral does not make it any less tragic.

If you ever had any friends who have lost a baby you would not compare it to the normal failure of most zygotes to implant. One IS far less tragic than the other.

>A child that dies at 2 weeks

We're talking about a zygote that dies at 2-3 days (which is when most of them die.)

[Amazon 7]

Quote

Sounds like situational morality.

I am glad that you finally recognize your motivations.















I am still wondering when another exceedingly condescending pro-life poster will show up since this is his favorite issue. He also is very far off base trying to tell us all how anyone who supports a womans right to choose to have a child is a murderer.

[Amazon 7]

The basic problem is this...


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9002085385040727366

[klingeme 1]

Quote

Quote

Up until birth, only one person has a real “bond” with the baby is the mother.

Quote

A child that dies at 2 weeks will have many less people “grieving” it that a 16 year old that dies. It’s all about the relationships they were able to form.

So, since we're working on a time weighted scale here, is an early first trimester abortion as heinous as a partial birth abortion? What about a recently fertilized egg?

You seem (on the verge of) admitting there are differences for each case, and yet you cannot see a grey area w/r/t abortions?

.jim

I'm just stating things that are fact. A 2 week old will have less people emotinally attached to it than a 16 year old simply because of the number of people they have been in contact with. The death is no less tragic, it is just tragic to fewer people.

I think the recently fertilized egg has had an attachment to 1 person for how ever many days it has been fertilized. A full term (Partial birth) baby has had 1 "relationship for about 9 months". A baby thrown in a dumpster has the same amount of a "relationship" as the partial birth. Just a little more of a "visual" relationship.

Do you claim that an infant that dies is greived for in the same way that a great grandparent with 4 kids, 12 grand children, and 2 or 3 great grand children?

Both are tragic, but both are grieved for VERY differently.

there is not GREY area.

[klingeme 1]

OK, new question. Someone punches a woman who is half way through their second trimester in the stomach and terminates the pregnancy. Is this "simple assault" because nothing was "killed"?

Mark Klingelhoefer

[Amazon 7]

Quote

OK, new question. Someone punches a woman who is half way through their second trimester in the stomach and terminates the pregnancy. Is this "simple assault" because nothing was "killed"?

Ask a prosecuting attorney in that jurisdiction. I am not a prosecuting attorney.


I would say look at the intent of the mother, it does have a bearing.

[klingeme 1]

So if she hires the guy to punch her, it's ok. I understand.


Have a good weekend everyone. Dizzy is a weekday thing for me, so I'll check back in on Monday.

[skydyvr 0]

Quote

How come you never address people's arguments about pushing your moral values on everyone else?

Oh, I get it -- and you also don't address anyone's questions about why you don't address those arguments.

Can't say I blame ya.

. . =(_8^(1)

[kallend 2,146]

Quote

I am pro death penalty. If you willingly and knowingly kill someone who meant you no harm, you too deserve to die.

But juries and judges are not infallible, so you really have no problem with the likelihood of killing an innocent, sentient adult. However, you would FORCE a rape victim to bear the child of a rapist.

I don't think I like YOUR morality one little bit.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.