3rd Presidential Debate 10/15/2008 Who won??????

[kallend 2,114]

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there was so much he said that wasn't even offensive to my personal and/or political beliefs - it just didn't make any damn sense. still don't know what to make of it all.

He was being mavericky and all...

McCain's grin reminded me of something.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[livendive 8]

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What the hell was McCain talking about when he said he thought one way to improve education would be to let every veteran who has ever served his country be automatically eligible to become a teacher without being subject to "those examinations, and those certifications"?

I was wondering about that too. But it was so out there that I decided that that couldn't have been what he meant to say. (?)

Here's the quote:

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We need to encourage programs such as Teach for America and Troops to Teachers where people, after having served in the military, can go right to teaching and not have to take these examinations which -- or have the certification that some are required in some states.

Really?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Shotgun 1]

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it felt to me like after the acorn and ayers allegations, mccain fell apart but that could just be me. i just kept thinking 'grouchy old man'.

"HEY YOU KIDS GET OFF MY LAWN!"

there was so much he said that wasn't even offensive to my personal and/or political beliefs - it just didn't make any damn sense. still don't know what to make of it all.

hmmm...

You know, I noticed that I kept finding myself sort of feeling sorry for McCain, though I wasn't sure why. But now that you mention it, maybe that is why - he did sort of come across as a grouchy old man. And I guess I hate to think of it that way, because I do have a lot of respect for him.

[nerdgirl 0]

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... 40 new nuclear reactors online within 4 years...

I missed the debate and haven't had a chance to read the transcript. He really said that?

Where does he expect to get the forging for the reactor vessels? Japan Steel Works is the only supplier of 600MT castings that are required for reactor vessels. They do 4-6/y, aim to increase to 10-12/y. There's a line. Japan Steel Works charges to *get* in line; countries/companies are selling their spot in line to high bidders. In the US B&W (who manages Y-12 as part of consortia) is looking to upscale capability but even the best scnarios would not have the manufacturing capacity for 40 new nuclear reactors in 4 years.

I wonder how many people think that the '40 in 4y' scenario is possible?

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[Amazon 7]

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We need to encourage programs such as Teach for America and Troops to Teachers where people, after having served in the military, can go right to teaching and not have to take these examinations which -- or have the certification that some are required in some states.

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Really?

I think he is a Starship Troopers fan. I think he would do well as Sky Marshall McCain. The thing is we are not living in THAT society in totality... yet.

[billvon 3,085]

>Where does he expect to get the forging for the reactor vessels?

Forget materials. You can't get the permits, environmental studies and siting reports (seismic, bearing etc) done in four years! You can cut out some of that, but given the risk a poorly-sited nuclear plant poses, it's not a very good idea. A plant that takes eight years from "let's do it" to power output is doing very well.

[skydyvr 0]

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One commenter compared him to a "redwood forest." "McCain fired some cannonballs into it, but afterwards, it was still a redwood forest."

Great imagery, 'cause that's exactly what happened several times.

Each time McCain fired a cannonball, Obama paused for a moment, then continued down the high road.

. . =(_8^(1)

[nerdgirl 0]

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>Where does he expect to get the forging for the reactor vessels?

Forget materials. You can't get the permits, environmental studies and siting reports (seismic, bearing etc) done in four years! You can cut out some of that, but given the risk a poorly-sited nuclear plant poses, it's not a very good idea. A plant that takes eight years from "let's do it" to power output is doing very well.

I'm cognizant of those aspects: those are sometimes invoked as indicators of interference or such. The point is that even if one magically removed requriements for safety/security/reduction of risk or magically had the 'perfect' site, the manufacturing capacity is inadequate.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[livendive 8]

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... 40 new nuclear reactors online within 4 years...

I missed the debate and haven't had a chance to read the transcript. He really said that?

Sort of, but now that I'm reading the transcript, I see that I didn't catch his qualifying his answer at the end to 7,8, 10 years. The question was:

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Would each of you give us a number, a specific number of how much you believe we can reduce our foreign oil imports during your first term?

And I believe the first question goes to you, Sen. McCain.

And the part about first term was emphasized.

McCain's answer was:

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I think we can, for all intents and purposes, eliminate our dependence on Middle Eastern oil and Venezuelan oil. Canadian oil is fine.

By the way, when Sen. Obama said he would unilaterally renegotiate the North American Free Trade Agreement, the Canadians said, "Yes, and we'll sell our oil to China."

You don't tell countries you're going to unilaterally renegotiate agreements with them.

We can eliminate our dependence on foreign oil by building 45 new nuclear plants, power plants, right away. We can store and we can reprocess.

Sen. Obama will tell you, in the -- as the extreme environmentalists do, it has to be safe.

Look, we've sailed Navy ships around the world for 60 years with nuclear power plants on them. We can store and reprocess spent nuclear fuel, Sen. Obama, no problem.

So the point is with nuclear power, with wind, tide, solar, natural gas, with development of flex fuel, hybrid, clean coal technology, clean coal technology is key in the heartland of America that's hurting rather badly.

So I think we can easily, within seven, eight, ten years, if we put our minds to it, we can eliminate our dependence on the places in the world that harm our national security if we don't achieve our independence.

So really he's saying 45 new reactors in seven to ten years, which still rings as absolutely not gonna happen in my mind, but not quite as loudly as the 40 in 4 years that I thought I heard.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[The111 1]

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What the hell was McCain talking about when he said he thought one way to improve education would be to let every veteran who has ever served his country be automatically eligible to become a teacher without being subject to "those examinations, and those certifications"?

I was wondering about that too. But it was so out there that I decided that that couldn't have been what he meant to say. (?)

That makes three of us. Taken at face value, this is one of the stupidest things I've heard said in the whole race. My girlfriend nearly fell off the couch laughing.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[billvon 3,085]

I didn't get much of that.

>We can eliminate our dependence on foreign oil by building 45 new nuclear plants. . .

?? We don't use oil to generate electricity; new nuclear plants won't help with our oil dependency problem. He may have meant something like "make electric cars and nuclear power plants to charge them" but that's a different approach - and the cars are the hard part. New nuclear plants will have the primary result of reducing natural gas and coal demand.

>Sen. Obama will tell you, in the -- as the extreme environmentalists do, it has
>to be safe.

Is he suggesting the the less-extreme environmentalists are OK with unsafe nuclear power? An odd statement. I don't think ANYONE in the US is OK with unsafe nuclear power plants.

[The111 1]

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Wouldn't you rather have the redwood forest standing quiet, strong, and literate, not flustered by the windbag blowing bullshit cannon balls in his face?

Some Americans do love their cannon balls.

I really like the redwood forest analogy though.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[nerdgirl 0]

Thanks for the clarification.

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So really he's saying 45 new reactors in seven to ten years, which still rings as absolutely not gonna happen in my mind, but not quite as loudly as the 40 in 4 years that I thought I heard.

Concur. And still basing that concurence on manufacturing capacity (& not just the large reactor vessels), skill sets (technical and craft) of available workforce, ballooning nuclear power plant capital costs. Hydrocarbon still *much* cheaper .. (today).

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[kallend 2,114]

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... 40 new nuclear reactors online within 4 years...

I missed the debate and haven't had a chance to read the transcript. He really said that?

Where does he expect to get the forging for the reactor vessels? Japan Steel Works is the only supplier of 600MT castings that are required for reactor vessels. They do 4-6/y, aim to increase to 10-12/y. There's a line. Japan Steel Works charges to *get* in line; countries/companies are selling their spot in line to high bidders. In the US B&W (who manages Y-12 as part of consortia) is looking to upscale capability but even the best scnarios would not have the manufacturing capacity for 40 new nuclear reactors in 4 years.

I wonder how many people think that the '40 in 4y' scenario is possible?

VR/Marg

Not me.

Back in the late '70s, when reactors were still being ordered. I was a consultant for B&W on fabrication of zircalloy fuel tubes. That is also a difficult process and will he hard to ramp up, IMO, assuming they go with existing fuel in tube technology.

I dunno what design McCain is thinking of.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[livendive 8]

Though I'm not in the power production industry, my work routinely overlaps the nuke world and I've narrowly avoided working for B&W a couple of times. In my opinion, even if we had pre-selected sites, a cookie cutter design, and unlimited funding, we'd still be hard-pressed to get the proposed number of reactors online within the time-frame mentioned. On the other hand, that kind of pressure on the front end would almost guarantee the availability of work in my field till well after my retirement age.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Amazon 7]

What I have always wondered is why this country does not build them as a national priority. The system that built many of the reactors after control was turned over to the civilain marklet has been greatly flawed.

Building something that has such a great potential to do great harm to so many people is not something that should be built by the lowest bidder that then ends up cutting corners with sloppy work with substandard materials.

I would support nuclear energy in a heartbeat if they could prove to me that they will be using the very best materials, built by the very best people, and built for the ages. The materials within the reactor are certainly something that will be around for the ages and should be dealt with in that manner.

I am a downwinder..... and I approve this message.

[TrophyHusband 0]

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What I have always wondered is why this country does not build them as a national priority. The system that built many of the reactors after control was turned over to the civilain marklet has been greatly flawed.

Building something that has such a great potential to do great harm to so many people is not something that should be built by the lowest bidder that then ends up cutting corners with sloppy work with substandard materials.

I would support nuclear energy in a heartbeat if they could prove to me that they will be using the very best materials, built by the very best people, and built for the ages. The materials within the reactor are certainly something that will be around for the ages and should be dealt with in that manner.

I am a downwinder..... and I approve this message.

for four years i worked as an equipment technician for a company that did automatic welding. because i could pass a background check and a drug test (not always cammon in the construction industry) i spent most of my time in the nukes. i've spent a lot of time in yellow suits inside drywells. because of the stanards that are in place reguarding material quality and workmanship, it would be very difficult (not impossible) for even the lowest bidder to get away with sub-standard materials and work. there are quality control hold points along the way. you could put a shitty worker on the job, and if his work wasn't up to par, he wouldn't be allowed to progress to the next step, period. i wouldn't be worried too much, in fact i would have no problem living downwind of a plant. of course i grew up downwind of trojan so it would be nothing new for me.

as far as any plant getting built in 4 years, thats less likely to happen than the seagals knocking on my door wanting to have an orgy with me while my wife happily videos it. many times our job in the plant is only a day or two of actual work, but can take weeks to get done because of the paperwork, qc hold points, and oversight. this is after who knows how many man-hours spent before i even got there developing, nitpicking, and scrutinizing the traveller (the step by step outline of the job to be done).

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[kallend 2,114]

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What I have always wondered is why this country does not build them as a national priority. The system that built many of the reactors after control was turned over to the civilain marklet has been greatly flawed.

Building something that has such a great potential to do great harm to so many people is not something that should be built by the lowest bidder that then ends up cutting corners with sloppy work with substandard materials.

I would support nuclear energy in a heartbeat if they could prove to me that they will be using the very best materials, built by the very best people, and built for the ages. The materials within the reactor are certainly something that will be around for the ages and should be dealt with in that manner.

I am a downwinder..... and I approve this message.

for four years i worked as an equipment technician for a company that did automatic welding. because i could pass a background check and a drug test (not always cammon in the construction industry) i spent most of my time in the nukes. i've spent a lot of time in yellow suits inside drywells. because of the stanards that are in place reguarding material quality and workmanship, it would be very difficult (not impossible) for even the lowest bidder to get away with sub-standard materials and work. there are quality control hold points along the way. you could put a shitty worker on the job, and if his work wasn't up to par, he wouldn't be allowed to progress to the next step, period. i wouldn't be worried too much, in fact i would have no problem living downwind of a plant. of course i grew up downwind of trojan so it would be nothing new for me.

as far as any plant getting built in 4 years, thats less likely to happen than the seagals knocking on my door wanting to have an orgy with me while my wife happily videos it. many times our job in the plant is only a day or two of actual work, but can take weeks to get done because of the paperwork, qc hold points, and oversight. this is after who knows how many man-hours spent before i even got there developing, nitpicking, and scrutinizing the traveller (the step by step outline of the job to be done).

You can still get problems due to design flaws (Detroit Edison), incorrectly specified materials (Commonwealth Edison, UK's CEGB), and operator error (TMI), etc. even with the most capable craftsmen.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Amazon 7]

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wouldn't be worried too much, in fact i would have no problem living downwind of a plant. of course i grew up downwind of trojan so it would be nothing new for me.

I am glad you brought up Trojan. It and other plants have certainly not been built to the standards I think we as a people would want in order to protect our children.. let alone their decendents 100 years from now. I was living in Oregon at the time and I still have 400' of river front property down river at Cathlamet. They closed it because the cost of replacing the steam tubes exceeded the benefits of replacing them. Obviously.. the steam tubes were not designed very well if they failed( and were full of cracks) in less than one half of the plants service life. The site STILL has the spent fuel rods( anyone for a quick swim in the pretty pool?) stored in ponds onsite.

http://ludb.clui.org/ex/i/OR3142/

The only nuclear power plant in Oregon shut down twenty years early, after a cracked steam tube released radioactive gas into the plant in 1992. It cost $450 million to build the plant, and it is expected to cost the same amount, at least, to make it go away. In 2001, the 1,000-ton 1,130-megawatt reactor was encased in concrete foam, and coated in blue shrink-wrapped plastic, then shipped up the Columbia River on a barge to the Hanford Nuclear Site in Washington, where it was placed in a 45 foot deep pit, and covered with six inches of gravel, making it the first commercial reactor to be moved and buried whole. The plant went on line in 1976, and was said to have been built on an Indian burial ground. When it shut down 16 years later, it was the largest commercial reactor to be decommissioned. The 500-foot-tall cooling tower was imploded in May 2006. The spent fuel rods, however, are still stored on site, as they are at all the other 108 or so commercial reactors in the country. Almost 800 rods are in a pool, next to the Columbia River, awaiting the possible opening of the Yucca Mountain radioactive storage facility in Nevada.

[kallend 2,114]

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wouldn't be worried too much, in fact i would have no problem living downwind of a plant. of course i grew up downwind of trojan so it would be nothing new for me.

I am glad you brought up Trojan. It and other plants have certainly not been built to the standards I think we as a people would want in order to protect our children.. let alone their decendents 100 years from now. I was living in Oregon at the time and I still have 400' of river front property down river at Cathlamet. They closed it because the cost of replacing the steam tubes exceeded the benefits of replacing them. Obviously.. the steam tubes were not designed very well if they failed( and were full of cracks) in less than one half of the plants service life. The site STILL has the spent fuel rods( anyone for a quick swim in the pretty pool?) stored in ponds onsite.

http://ludb.clui.org/ex/i/OR3142/

The only nuclear power plant in Oregon shut down twenty years early, after a cracked steam tube released radioactive gas into the plant in 1992. It cost $450 million to build the plant, and it is expected to cost the same amount, at least, to make it go away. In 2001, the 1,000-ton 1,130-megawatt reactor was encased in concrete foam, and coated in blue shrink-wrapped plastic, then shipped up the Columbia River on a barge to the Hanford Nuclear Site in Washington, where it was placed in a 45 foot deep pit, and covered with six inches of gravel, making it the first commercial reactor to be moved and buried whole. The plant went on line in 1976, and was said to have been built on an Indian burial ground. When it shut down 16 years later, it was the largest commercial reactor to be decommissioned. The 500-foot-tall cooling tower was imploded in May 2006. The spent fuel rods, however, are still stored on site, as they are at all the other 108 or so commercial reactors in the country. Almost 800 rods are in a pool, next to the Columbia River, awaiting the possible opening of the Yucca Mountain radioactive storage facility in Nevada.

I'm not familiar with Trojan, but several of the Illinois plants suffered severe cracking in the cooling system pipework due to improper grade of steel being specified. They didn't close the plant, they ripped out the pipes and replaced them (at astronomical cost).

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[TrophyHusband 0]

i can't speak to what things were like when the plants were originally built, i can only tell you my experience in this decade. i was in the industry post three mile island, but the old-timers said that a hell of a lot changed because of that incident.

cathlamet huh. we have a camping spot reserved at the marina for bald eagle days next year. hows the steelhead fishing from your property?

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[TrophyHusband 0]

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I'm not familiar with Trojan, but several of the Illinois plants suffered severe cracking in the cooling system pipework due to improper grade of steel being specified. They didn't close the plant, they ripped out the pipes and replaced them (at astronomical cost).

you aren't lying about the astronomical cost. i don't understand how those things are profitable. i have made a pile of money while sitting on my ass in those plants, and the company i worked for made a hell of a lot more charging the plants over $100 and hour for me to sit on said ass. Quad cities was one of them.

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[Amazon 7]

I am on the Cathlamet side of the river on the island. The fishing from there is not so great. There is Prescott Beach right over by the old Trojan plant that is pretty good for steelies There should be hardly any glow to them at all..

http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCP&cp=46.049378~-122.888025&style=h&lvl=17&tilt=-38.6521887346029&dir=4.07243126087562e-15&alt=602.014251221903&cam=46.042529~-122.888025&scene=-1&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1

Downriver there is a very deep cut just to the north west of Longview on the Washington side on Hwy4 all of the flow of the Columbia forces right past there between Eagle Cliff and the docks.

http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCP&cp=46.180658~-123.186301&style=h&lvl=17&tilt=-38.6530970473729&dir=4.07243126087562e-15&alt=731.471016529016&cam=46.172231~-123.186301&scene=-1&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1

The water there is fast flowing.. and there are deep 90'+ holes where the large sturgeon lurk.

[LyraM45 0]

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What the hell was McCain talking about when he said he thought one way to improve education would be to let every veteran who has ever served his country be automatically eligible to become a teacher without being subject to "those examinations, and those certifications"?

I was wondering about that too. But it was so out there that I decided that that couldn't have been what he meant to say. (?) Unimpressed

Ding, ding, ding!! This, one top of many things, sealed the last nail in the coffin for me. I wouldn't be surprised if this was really what he meant to say, since in his eyes, military people can do no wrong . There are a whole lot of intelligent military people out there for sure, but I also know a whole lot of people with the IQ of a bag of rocks who went into the military right out of high school because they couldn't get into any schools or go on for a trade and the military is always looking for a warm body to put on the front lines and attempt to reform into a better individual. Sure, they grow up and learn to behave, but you can't teach them intelligence and how to pass that intelligence and knowledge on to our kids in the classrooms.

Like I said, I know a ton of great military people. All of my co-workers at my aviation weather job are former meteorology officers from the air force and they can forecast just as well as any ivy league graduates I know, but its the type of military person I was talking about above who I'm worried about just getting thrusted into a classroom. Any person, military or not, shouldn't just be thrown into a classroom. Whats the sense of having the standards where people have a passion to go into teaching, take exams to get into a good school, take specific classes for that particular subject in education they are interested in pursuing, and get all the necessary certification and training needed to be responsible for teaching our next generation? There is no sense then. We might as well let troops come back and become a medical resident without any training, a pilot even though they've never flown a day in their life, or a broadway performer even though they have no passion for music or theater and never stepped foot on a stage in their life. Let's help troops come back and apply for school if they meet all the same requirements everybody else faces in those programs, help fund their educations, and take the proper steps needed to start a career post military; don't just destroy the standards we have set in place, especially when it comes to teaching.

Just my two cents, I guess..... sorry for the rant!

Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

[tbrown 26]

Obama, decisively, for simply sticking to the issues.

McCain indulged himself by slumming in the shitter, throwing handfuls of poop at Obama. It's ALL he has to offer - no new ideas, just slinging shit.

I used to respect McCain, but no more. He's a nasty, spiteful bald faced liar.

And he's going to be swept away in a landslide, just wait and see. The Supreme Court isn't going to bail this guy's ass out by one vote, not this time around. He's not going to be able to deny enough blacks or Hispanics their right to vote either. This time around the Republicans are going to have to hire a marksman, and I wouldn't put that past them either, not for one moment. Their dream of single party rule has collapsed and they'd be lucky to be elected dog catcher - and they know it.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !