kallend 2,230 #1 October 15, 2008 www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/14/AR2008101403331.html "The United States of America does not torture. And that's important for people around the world to understand.". G.W. Bush, Nov 29, 2005... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallingOsh 0 #2 October 15, 2008 Ugh. Waterboarding has been discussed as an interrogation technique ad nauseum. Wonderfully inflamatory subject line, though. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,230 #3 October 15, 2008 QuoteUgh. Waterboarding has been discussed as an interrogation technique ad nauseum. Wonderfully inflamatory subject line, though. Well, torture is an inflammatory subject. Even McCain can't make up his mind if he's against it or for it.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Channman 2 #4 October 15, 2008 QuoteQuoteUgh. Waterboarding has been discussed as an interrogation technique ad nauseum. Wonderfully inflamatory subject line, though. Well, torture is an inflammatory subject. Even McCain can't make up his mind if he's against it or for it. I'm for it when it works. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #5 October 15, 2008 But only on the other side... not them on us (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallingOsh 0 #6 October 15, 2008 Quote Well, torture is an inflammatory subject. Even McCain can't make up his mind if he's against it or for it. I wasn't talking about torture. I was talking about your subject line. You intentionally made it sound as bad as possible. How about "Another old argument that has been discussed over and over for years and nothing new has surface." McCain has always been against torture for obvious reasons. He's even against waterboarding. The problem is that you equate any interrogation with torture. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,173 #7 October 15, 2008 > You intentionally made it sound as bad as possible. It is literally correct. It's like a headline "Potential Fraud in ACORN Voter Registrations." It may make ACORN sound really bad, but is accurate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,230 #8 October 15, 2008 QuoteQuote Well, torture is an inflammatory subject. Even McCain can't make up his mind if he's against it or for it. I wasn't talking about torture. I was talking about your subject line. You intentionally made it sound as bad as possible. How about "Another old argument that has been discussed over and over for years and nothing new has surface." McCain has always been against torture for obvious reasons. He's even against waterboarding. The problem is that you equate any interrogation with torture. So why did McCain vote with George the Untruthful on the torture bill? Why did George the Untruthful say that America doesn't torture, when his administration had given the go-ahead.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thanatos340 1 #9 October 15, 2008 Hmmm.. Lets see. We were holding Bad guys that were trying to kill us (Enemy Combatants) that most likely knew about other bad guys that are still trying to kill us. And we should just wait and see if they change their minds about us and tell us what the Bad guys are planning?? In the mean time more and more of our soldiers and possibly civilians get killed while we wait.War is a dirty job. People get hurt. Sometime the best way to keep a lot of people from getting hurt is to Hurt a few of those that are trying to kill us. Especially if that Hurt might get information that saves some lives. War Sucks but it is an all or nothing game. Either do it or don’t. Doing it half ass is the worst possible scenario for all involved. This don’t hurt the enemy bullshit is just that. If you are holding an enemy that has information that might save american lives, NOT doing everything possible to extract that information should the crime in my opinion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,230 #10 October 15, 2008 Quote Hmmm.. Lets see. We were holding Bad guys that were trying to kill us (Enemy Combatants) that most likely knew about other bad guys that are still trying to kill us. And we should just wait and see if they change their minds about us and tell us what the Bad guys are planning?? In the mean time more and more of our soldiers and possibly civilians get killed while we wait.War is a dirty job. People get hurt. Sometime the best way to keep a lot of people from getting hurt is to Hurt a few of those that are trying to kill us. Especially if that Hurt might get information that saves some lives. War Sucks but it is an all or nothing game. Either do it or don’t. Doing it half ass is the worst possible scenario for all involved. This don’t hurt the enemy bullshit is just that. If you are holding an enemy that has information that might save american lives, NOT doing everything possible to extract that information should the crime in my opinion. Can we take it, then, that you approve of torture?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Channman 2 #11 October 15, 2008 "The Pacifist is as surely a traitor to his country and to humanity as is the most brutal wrongdoer." Theodore Roosevelt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funjumper101 15 #12 October 15, 2008 Quote Hmmm.. Lets see. We were holding Bad guys that were trying to kill us (Enemy Combatants) that most likely knew about other bad guys that are still trying to kill us. And we should just wait and see if they change their minds about us and tell us what the Bad guys are planning?? In the mean time more and more of our soldiers and possibly civilians get killed while we wait.War is a dirty job. People get hurt. Sometime the best way to keep a lot of people from getting hurt is to Hurt a few of those that are trying to kill us. Especially if that Hurt might get information that saves some lives. War Sucks but it is an all or nothing game. Either do it or don’t. Doing it half ass is the worst possible scenario for all involved. This don’t hurt the enemy bullshit is just that. If you are holding an enemy that has information that might save american lives, NOT doing everything possible to extract that information should the crime in my opinion. Watching a little too much TV recently? What you wrote sounds like the bullshit from "24". The Geneva Convention isn't a quaint idea. It is international law. It will be very interesting to see if Shrub, Cheney, et al, get arrested for war crimes if they travel internationally. I certainly hope so... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #13 October 15, 2008 Quote Hmmm.. Lets see. We were holding Bad guys that were trying to kill us (Enemy Combatants) that most likely knew about other bad guys that are still trying to kill us. And we should just wait and see if they change their minds about us and tell us what the Bad guys are planning?? In the mean time more and more of our soldiers and possibly civilians get killed while we wait.War is a dirty job. People get hurt. Sometime the best way to keep a lot of people from getting hurt is to Hurt a few of those that are trying to kill us. Especially if that Hurt might get information that saves some lives. War Sucks but it is an all or nothing game. Either do it or don’t. Doing it half ass is the worst possible scenario for all involved. This don’t hurt the enemy bullshit is just that. If you are holding an enemy that has information that might save american lives, NOT doing everything possible to extract that information should the crime in my opinion. I disagree with you, but you certainly have the right to your position. I wish, however, that you would stand up and publicly ask your government to officially rescind the US's participation in the Geneva Convention. As long as the gov remains a signatory, torture is a war crime. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,230 #14 October 15, 2008 Quote"The Pacifist is as surely a traitor to his country and to humanity as is the most brutal wrongdoer." Theodore Roosevelt "The United States of America does not torture. And that's important for people around the world to understand.". G.W. Bush, Nov 29, 2005... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #15 October 15, 2008 Quote Hmmm.. Lets see. We were holding Bad guys that were trying to kill us (Enemy Combatants) that most likely knew about other bad guys that are still trying to kill us. And we should just wait and see if they change their minds about us and tell us what the Bad guys are planning?? In the mean time more and more of our soldiers and possibly civilians get killed while we wait.War is a dirty job. People get hurt. Sometime the best way to keep a lot of people from getting hurt is to Hurt a few of those that are trying to kill us. Especially if that Hurt might get information that saves some lives. War Sucks but it is an all or nothing game. Either do it or don’t. Doing it half ass is the worst possible scenario for all involved. This don’t hurt the enemy bullshit is just that. If you are holding an enemy that has information that might save american lives, NOT doing everything possible to extract that information should the crime in my opinion. You seem to assume that torture is the most effective way of getting information from them. Experts in interrogation insist that it is not. Torture has been shown to be an ineffective way of getting accurate info out of people, so why use it? Interrogators have plenty of other, more effective & professional means of getting info out of prisoners, that actually work BETTER than torture. Using torture is not only immoral, it is unprofessional and ineffective. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 917 #16 October 15, 2008 Sure is a good thing the enemy in this war don't use torture then. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,648 #17 October 15, 2008 Quote Sure is a good thing the enemy in this war don't use torture then. So you think that the way we conduct ourselves should be based on what the enemy thinks is acceptable?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,648 #18 October 15, 2008 QuoteAnd we should just wait and see if they change their minds about us and tell us what the Bad guys are planning?? Who ever said that? QuoteIf you are holding an enemy that has information that might save american lives, NOT doing everything possible to extract that information should the crime in my opinion. If you talk to professional interrogators they will tell you that the best way to get reliable information from a captive is to build a rapport with that person, and that torturing them is the best way to get them to tell you any old shit that pops into their heads. If you are serious about wanting to get the most useful information we can out of enemy combatants then you should not be a supporter of torture.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,173 #19 October 15, 2008 >Sure is a good thing the enemy in this war don't use torture then. Is your morality the same as our enemy's? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallingOsh 0 #20 October 15, 2008 Quote So why did McCain vote with the President on the torture bill? Why did the President say that America doesn't torture, when his administration had given the go-ahead. Read the article. McCain had already led the charge in favor of the Military Commissions Act. When we passed the Military Commissions Act, we said that the C.I.A. should have the ability to use additional techniques,” Mr. McCain told reporters Friday in Oshkosh, Wis. “None of those techniques would entail violating the Detainee Treatment Act, which said that cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment are prohibited.” And here's his take on waterboarding. Staging a mock execution by inducing the misperception of drowning is a clear violation of this standard,” Mr. McCain said in the statement. “Indeed, during the negotiations, we were personally assured by administration officials that this language, which applies to all agencies of the U.S. government, prohibited waterboarding.” He voted against the new bill because he didn't believe the Army manual had substantial interrogation techniques. I don't agree with torture. I think the Geneva Convention (though we're the only ones following them in most cases) is what defines us as the good guy. While animals over there are cutting peoples' heads off, we're fattening them up in detainment. Torture would lower us to their level. HOWEVER, interrogation does not equal torture. Waterboarding is used on our own troops for training. Interrogations are performed on our own troops for training. If you think hostile interrogations or the occassional waterboard are torture then you should read a book on what really happen to the prisoners in Hanoi. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 917 #21 October 15, 2008 not even close.Note that I didn't condone or endorse anything. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,173 #22 October 15, 2008 >not even close. Cool. Mine isn't either. Which means what they do has no bearing on what we do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AWL71 0 #23 October 15, 2008 War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. --John Stuart Mill, 1806-1873The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,648 #24 October 15, 2008 QuoteWar is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. --John Stuart Mill, 1806-1873 And what the fuck does that have to do with this thread? If all you can do is quote dead guys you could at least find relevant quotes!Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #25 October 15, 2008 John Stuart Mill Of his own free will On half a pint of shandy was particularly ill Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
