Cut away w/ Pilot Chute in Tow?

[jacketsdb23 49]

So, I have always been taught progression. Pilot chute, cut away, Reserve. Obviously in a hard pull or low exit (emergency), as well as some other instances maybe, I would go right for the reserve. I've heard some people say they wouldn't cut away w/ a pilot chute in tow (altitude permitting). What would you do/have you done and why?

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[NWFlyer 2]

Lots of discussion on this one ... here's a good place to start:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=search_results&search_forum=cat_1&search_string=pilot+chute+in+tow&search_type=AND&search_fields=sb&search_time=&search_user_username=&sb=score&mh=50

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

I have been teaching for a very long time. In all those years I have always put out the same info:

-if your PC is out of the pouch, then any type of mal after that is a partial malfunction and you always cutaway before pulling your reserve.

The only time you do not cutaway is if you have a total malfunction:

-you can't find your PC at all
-you found your PC, but you can not extract it from the pouch

[tdog 0]

Quote

I have been teaching for a very long time. In all those years I have always put out the same info:

-if your PC is out of the pouch, then any type of mal after that is a partial malfunction and you always cutaway before pulling your reserve.

The only time you do not cutaway is if you have a total malfunction:

-you can't find your PC at all
-you found your PC, but you can not extract it from the pouch

That is what I have been teaching... But - I have been worried that if the person pulled like hell on the PC that it could be out enough still to cause problems... So, I have thought about clarifying - that if you made any progress with the PC or can't find the PC once you started pulling on it, then cutaway and pull reserve...

Perhaps that is too much for a FJC, so I have been keeping it simple stupid and have been following your example for them...

[lisamariewillbe 1]

Quote

-if your PC is out of the pouch, then any type of mal after that is a partial malfunction and you always cutaway before pulling your reserve.

The only time you do not cutaway is if you have a total malfunction:

-you can't find your PC at all
-you found your PC, but you can not extract it from the pouch

I really like that. Thanks for reiderating. Theres alot of threads and sometimes hard to find this stuff without reading things that dont apply first. If its not to much could I inquire with a PC in tow are there any issues with an RSL being connected? In my mind I see the reserve snagging on the PC or the bridal and causing a wrap. With a RSL is there a chance that the time between the cut and the deployment of the reserve interferre with each other?

Also if one chooses to not cut away, which I hear there are a number of people who wouldnt, what are the advantage's from someone who has an instructors rating and teaches it to students?

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[sundevil777 102]

A PC in tow is a total malfunction according to how the SIM has them categorized.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[sundevil777 102]

The debate centers on the fact that many times a PC in tow will stop 'towing' when the reserve is opened (depending on the reason for the 'tow'), because of reduced tension on the container, thus there is a risk of a simultaneous deployment and entanglement.

The chance for problems with a 2 out situation must be balanced against the precious time used to find and pull a cutaway handle at terminal speed, and the chance for the departing main and RSL hardware to snag the reserve. It is not a settled issue on which is best, but I favor not cutting away.

Please read;
http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/dualsq.pdf

and this is a decent thread dealing thoughtfully with the subject (of course my posts are the most thoughtful:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=598036#598036

edit-fixed link

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[peckerhead 0]

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The only time you do not cutaway is if you have a total malfunction:

I agree with this statement. I consider a pilot chute in tow to be a total malfunction because the container remains closed.

[DALAILAMA 0]

A pilot chute in tow doesn't always mean a closed container. It is a total to the resprect that there is nothing deploying but the main pin may have been extracted thats why I teach cut away then deploy reserve.

"Dropzone.com, where uneducated people measuring penises, has become an art form"

[JohnMitchell 16]

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A pilot chute in tow doesn't always mean a closed container. It is a total to the resprect that there is nothing deploying but the main pin may have been extracted thats why I teach cut away then deploy reserve.

If the pilot chute is out and the pin is pulled, and it's not going anywhere, it's either a hesitation or a horseshoe, wouldn't you think?

BTW, I just ordered a new Infinity, with a pull out, of course.

[AFFI 0]

Great discussion from a lot of experienced individuals here -

Keep it comming!!!

(Although I agree that a PC in tow is a Total)...

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[AFFI 0]

Although, if the PC is in tow, the pin is extracted and the parachute is not comming out for whatever reason, hmmmmm.

Then I suppose it would ba a PCIT that is a partial.

Prevention is the best cure and odds are it will be a total...

But on the other hand,

Shit...

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[Frenchy68 0]

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Great discussion from a lot of experienced individuals here

Let me fix that...
My own (very limited experience) is that at terminal when things don't go as planned, we (especially low timers) have a tendency to go with what we practice doing: cutaway, then reserve. I had a PC caught in the burble at around 40 jumps (lazy thrown); after the initial instants of freak out, I went for my cutaway handle, which action changed the airflow then the PC caught air and delpoyed the main.
But I wonder how many experienced jumpers, while going through 2k at terminal with a main that won't come out, will go straight to silver.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[feuergnom 29]

not cutting away killed this experienced skydiver

a PCIT is a nightmare to deal with, chances go in both directions: you can survive either action or get killed the same

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[yoink 321]

Quote

a PCIT is a nightmare to deal with, chances go in both directions: you can survive either action or get killed the same

Agreed... it's my nightmare mal and I spend a lot of time checking my PC, kill line, pin and bridle routing regularly. As much preventative maintainence as possible for this one...

I'd rather replace a PC too early in its life than regret doing it too late.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

I agree with Frenchy. And then the worst part of this mal so to speak is the difference in how people look at it. No clear cut answer as instuctors I trust have opposite thoughts on which action to take. Its easier to follow directions and therefore I decided to stick with what I learned in AFF and have practiced since then, now Ill just look up the info on preventitive maintence and packing.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[jheadley 0]

Quote

Quote

I have been teaching for a very long time. In all those years I have always put out the same info:

-if your PC is out of the pouch, then any type of mal after that is a partial malfunction and you always cutaway before pulling your reserve.

The only time you do not cutaway is if you have a total malfunction:

-you can't find your PC at all
-you found your PC, but you can not extract it from the pouch

That is what I have been teaching... But - I have been worried that if the person pulled like hell on the PC that it could be out enough still to cause problems... So, I have thought about clarifying - that if you made any progress with the PC or can't find the PC once you started pulling on it, then cutaway and pull reserve...

Perhaps that is too much for a FJC, so I have been keeping it simple stupid and have been following your example for them...

I saw just that happen in Feburary or March. A woman at Z hills had a hard pull that partially extracted the pilot chute, she cutaway and pulled silver, and it was a good thing since the main container opened immediately from the shock and the main released cleanly, still in the d-bag. It landed practically right next to me as I was walking down skydive lane.

[sundevil777 102]

Quote

not cutting away killed this experienced skydiver

a PCIT is a nightmare to deal with, chances go in both directions: you can survive either action or get killed the same

There may have been an entanglement even if she had cutaway first. The bagged main still has to pass through the same path, whether the risers have been released or not.

Simultaneous deployment was exactly the subject of the testing done by the Army/PD, and their results do not lead to the conclusion that cutting away first is better.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[jacketsdb23 49]

Thanks for all the input. I think ultimately its best to go with what you've learned and practiced (even if its just practicing in your head). Preventative maintenance is the key!!

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[sundevil777 102]

Quote

I saw just that happen in Feburary or March. A woman at Z hills had a hard pull that partially extracted the pilot chute, she cutaway and pulled silver, and it was a good thing since the main container opened immediately from the shock and the main released cleanly, still in the d-bag.

I say it did not matter.

If the main container opens due to opening shock of the reserve, then I contend that it does not matter if you cutaway first, because the main will drop and be deploying (slowly) away from the reserve. The main might not even fully deploy, but in any case it is a simple, safe matter to cutaway at that time without risk.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[riggerrob 643]

I teach my students - that if any part of the main is out, even if it is only half-pulled pilot chute - then they should release thier main and follow through with the reserve ripcord.
There have been numerous cases of pilot chute in tow malfunctions where - when the reserve container was emptied - the reduced tension on the main container allowed the main pin to pop.
The last thing I want is two canopies fighting to inflate in the same air space at the same time.

Oh! ... and I have landed one biplane and that was enough biplanes for this lifetime.

[wmw999 2,589]

One of the traditional reasons for not cutting away a pilot chute in tow was not wanting to have loose hardware at the ends of the risers grabbing things.

Now that riser covers are generally good, that's not as much of a concern, and might change the rationale. I know that when I have a PC in tow, I definitely didn't cut away for exactly that reason. Now I might, because my 3-rings probably aren't going anywhere unless the main takes them.

But prevention is still best.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[feuergnom 29]

Quote

Quote

not cutting away killed this experienced skydiver

a PCIT is a nightmare to deal with, chances go in both directions: you can survive either action or get killed the same

There may have been an entanglement even if she had cutaway first. The bagged main still has to pass through the same path, whether the risers have been released or not.

what i said - you can survive or die either way

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[billvon 3,120]

>But I wonder how many experienced jumpers, while going through 2k
>at terminal with a main that won't come out, will go straight to silver.

In my experience - very few. People generally do what they train to do, and I've never seen anyone practice just going for their reserve handle.

[winsor 236]

Quote

The debate centers on the fact that many times a PC in tow will stop 'towing' when the reserve is opened (depending on the reason for the 'tow'), because of reduced tension on the container, thus there is a risk of a simultaneous deployment and entanglement.

The chance for problems with a 2 out situation must be balanced against the precious time used to find and pull a cutaway handle at terminal speed, and the chance for the departing main and RSL hardware to snag the reserve. It is not a settled issue on which is best, but I favor not cutting away.

If the only way you might consider cutting away is in a sequential fashion, maybe.

I highly recommend keeping the decision tree simple for emergency procedures, and think Chuck's approach is spot-on. If I have not initiated deployment at all, I go straight to silver. If I have initiated any part of the deployment sequence, my hands are immediately on their appropriate handles exactly as they have 10,000 times before.

From my experience, it takes the same amount of time to cut away and deploy the reserve as it does to just deploy the reserve if the two handles are pulled simultaneously (a gunslinger cutaway).

If you have trouble multitasking to that extent, pulling silver and immediately thereafter pulling the cutaway may be a solution.

In any event, I highly recommend ensuring that the main will simply go away if it decides to deploy at some time after going to reserve. I know of a number of cases where a recalcitrant main finally decided to deploy, and none of them had unpleasant outcomes when the cutaway handle had been pulled.

OTOH, I know of all too many cases where people have been maimed or killed when they found themselves doing impromptu personal CRW and things went wrong. Having seen the results of that approach, I do not consider the appropriate course of action to be subject to debate.


Blue skies,

Winsor