Are Plastic or Paper Bags Better for the Environment?

[lawrocket 3]

So I'm always asked at the grocery store whether I want paper or plastic. Well, not always. I've had cloth bags in the past that broke a little too easily and they are NEVER designed the same way as those little plastic ones. But that's an aside.

I am not convinced that paper is more environmentally friendly than plastic. In fact, I think in a number of circumstances, it is more harmful, especially depending on where you live.

I live in the Central Valley of California. Some things we have a lot of are space and air pollution. Things were are blessed with are large amounts of water. Electricity has been a problem, too.

So in looking at what it takes to produce plastic bags versus paper bags (if done locally), paper bags need large amounts of water (for pulping and washing), trees and power (over 2,500 BTU's per bag)to produce. They also utilize chemicals like limestone, sulfuric acid and bleach. Also, you won't find a lot of recycled product in the actual paper bags themselves.

Plastics require less energy and water to produce. Their manufacture is generally from waste products of the petroleum refining process - toxic. The polyethylene pellets come fromt he refinery where they are melted and formed into bags (about 600 BTU's per bag).

Regarding production, I'm leaning towards plastics because they are produced with what is already a waste product and need less energy and water to produce. On the downside, they are petroleum based, and thus not renewable.

Transportation? Plastic bags are lighter. Less energy is required to transport them. Plastic wins here by a longshot.

Use? Both are pretty equal, except paper bags cost more, and they are not useful with anything than may cause it to get wet. Plastics are probably more utilitatrian in that sense.

The biggest issue, then, comes with disposal of the used bags. On this, there are two fronts - recycling versus landfill.

Recycling? Paper bags have a leg up because they are pretty much universally recyclable. But recycling also requires water and chemicals and energy. Most plastics are recyclable, too - less energy, but the labor to separate out the different types of plastic make it unprofitable.

This leaves landfill. On the negative side, plastics do not biodegrade. On the plus side, plastics are not biodegradeable. Plus side? Biodegrading causes problems by itself. When items are placed in landfills, modern landfills are designed to be anaerobic. This produces leachates - which have caused big problems in the past, and modern landfills must be sealed to prevent it from escaping into groundwater, etc. And it must be monitored and collected if it escapes. Anaerobic Biodegradation also results in the production of methane - a potent greenhouse gas. Plus side - the methane can be captured and burned.

Another thing of note - anaerobes cannot breakdown cellulose - perhaps the key core component of paper bags. So paper bags aren't really as biodegradeable as one would think/

On the other hand, plastic bags don't biodegrade. They are stable as just stay there. They don't release leachates or methane or anything else. They just stay where they are put. If you have limited place to put your trash, this is a problem.

So in looking at these factors, what is it that makes paper better than plastic and/or vice versa? Which is better for the environment?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[normiss 917]

I typically respond with "titanium" or "stainless".
The result is Mary punches me, and the bagger and the checker pause in confusion.

I think the cloth bags they have FOR SALE are probably our best bet. I just hate to pay for them.

My grandmother used to have this wireframe cart....no bags required.

[billvon 3,173]

I think that overall there's not much difference. The biggest things you can do are:

1) Not use bags. I generally just bring my bike panniers.

2) When you do use bags, reuse them for lunch, trash, worm food etc.

[Cari 0]

I think both have their advantages and disadvantages, but I use reusable bags. www.baggubag.com They're awesome. I can fit into one bag what I could fit into 3-4 plastic grocery bags and the handle is big enough (and strong enough) for me to throw it over my shoulder, so I have my hands free for my keys, to open the door, etc. Every now and then, I get more groceries than will fit in my bags and I do opt for plastic for the extra stuff...but they all get reused to pick up dog poop when I take my dog on walks. I don't think paper bags would be very effective for that....

[DFWAJG 4]

Use Canvas.

[wmw999 2,644]

Depends on what you do with them. If you reuse, then whichever you reuse is better. If you recycle, then whichever you recycle is better.

I use the cloth ones, every now and then we have to get paper because it's what the kitchen trash uses. Plastic are pretty much reserved for dog poop gathered in from the back yard, or else recycled.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[quade 4]

Quote

Depends on what you do with them. If you reuse, then whichever you reuse is better. If you recycle, then whichever you recycle is better.

That said, plastic bag recycling is largely a misnomer. Most just end up in a landfill somewhere. At least when a paper bag does this it will eventually decompose in a fairly short period of time compared to the plastic bag.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[lawrocket 3]

That's the problem. It decomposes. And a landfill is so that the stuff doesn't go anywhere.

And I'll add a caveat - plastic bags, if not contained, are far worse than paper bags because they don't dc. Just individual plastic bags out there are worse than paper bags

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[434 2]

The sorry fact is that the amount of plastic in the sea - by weight - is now several times greater than the amount of plankton. Lou also mentions that scientists have discovered a three-million tonne mass of plastic debris the size of Texas floating in the North Pacific. It forms a giant floating island of plastic.
There are some facts you hear which leave a hard lump in your stomach. That’s one of them.

Anyone who gets email has seen the one containing fraudulent predictions of Nostradamus. About four years ago, I received a similarly suspicious email stating that a researcher had found six times more plastic than plankton floating in the middle of the Pacific. This one struck a chord with me because of my knowledge of plastics. I wanted to find out if it was just a prank or, heaven forbid, the truth.

Link http://www.mindfully.org/Plastic/Ocean/Sea-Plastic-LN-PG5oct05.htm


http://www.nigelsecostore.com/blog/2007/05/16/102/

[kelpdiver 2]

to the west of California is a huge zone (the size of a large state) of floating garbage, heavily populated with plastic bags. This doesn't happen with paper.

SF banned plastic in the big grocery stores, so we lost the mental anguish of making this decision for ourselves. I'm hoping though that a few generations of reusable bag sellers will come up with something that works pretty well.

[rehmwa 2]

If you buy a little cook stove, you can just sit down in the aisle of the store and prepare your meals right there.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[pirana 0]

Quote

Use? Both are pretty equal, except paper bags cost more, and they are not useful with anything than may cause it to get wet. Plastics are probably more utilitatrian in that sense.

No way. Those plastic bags are total bullshit when it comes to utility. It takes 4 or 5 of them to do the work of one paper bag. They do not hold any kind of shape, don't stack nice in the car, spill their contents when set down - absolute crap if you are buying more than you could carry in your arms with no bag at all.

And I hate that those village idiots they hire for the checkout at Wal-Mart seem to want to give you 15 little plastic bages, each containing 4 items. I tell them to please fill them up, that I'd rather haul 6 full plastic bags that hold no shape and spill shit all over my trunk than 15 partially full plastic bags that hold no shape and spill shit all over my trunk.

So they start putting one or two more items in each bag. Me, rolling my eyes, "Oh that's much better." So I grab that little carousel thingy and spin it around and start condensing bags. They shoot me the you're-not-supposed-to-cross-that-line look, but stay back since I'm obviously a bit crazy as evidenced by the 2 kids in tow wearing WHEN-PIGS-FLY skydiving T-shirts.

I shoot back the and-to-think-I'm-an-advocate-of-you-morons-receiving-a-decent-wage look just as the handle breaks on the first bag I heft into the cart. I end up just dumping all the contents of the broken-handled bags into the cart, then pouring the contents wheelbarrow style into the trunk of the car.

In my last attempt to behave like a decent human, having forgiven them for going plastic so they can carve 1/10th of 1 cent more off the cost of a 36-pak of toilet paper and preserve the right to use that ALWAYS slogan about low prices and that STUPID FUCKING YELLOW SMILEY ICON; I perform my good citizen duty and return the cart to the cart corral only to find that another manifestation of the mouthbreather shopping experience is the total inability to properly nest the carts and get more than 3 carts into that 10' by 20' cart repository.

FUCK IT! I full force jam my cart into, over, and thru the ones already there, knowing full well it will take Conan the Barbarian to separate them for the next little blue-hair that needs a cart.

But I digress from the issue of the bags. I get home, walk in the door, and Honey asks me if I need a hand with the groceries. I tell her I'm running late, there's barely gonna be time for me to get on 4 loads before dark, that I'm gonna take the van to the DZ, and that it would be really super cool if she would grab the groceries from the trunk.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[Cari 0]

I worked in retail for a long time. Most of the people I've worked with don't deserve any more money than they make.

[pirana 0]

Quote

I worked in retail for a long time. Most of the people I've worked with don't deserve any more money than they make.

I won't argue that. I really do have compassion for most humans and their place in life; can't fight who you are.

But I also believe in calling it like it is and one of the things I tell them when we have a strange retail encounter (often) is that there is a reason that person does what they do - because they can do no more.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley