The DOW plunges nearly 800 points in one day, the biggest drop in history

[NoShitThereIWas 0]

Wow, that makes me feel so much better. The stupid ironic thing is that I approached my investment adviser Sept of last year fearing this would happen and asked him to move everything of mine out of the market, sell and put my money in money market accounts where it would have remained protected. Well, the short of it is, he talked me out of it. Long term, long term, blah, blah, blah...

The DOW was in the neighborhood of 14,500 then. Yep, I'm sure glad I listened to him. I get scared thinking about if or when our market will get there again. Yesterday it closed around 10,300. And just because it has gone up 240 some odd points today so far doesn't mean it can't plummet another 500-1000 points tomorrow.

Looks like long term is my ONLY option now. If the market even gets close to back up where I started I am outta here and investing in precious metals like palladium and taking my currency in Euros. So far not listening to my own gut has got me in trouble. I don't enjoy playing in volatile markets with potential for collapse.

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

[Skyrad 0]

Saying what GWB did to the world was most likely the most stupid thing he has ever done. He trashed confidence around the world and now his bail out has been rejected the world is taking him at his word. Has there ever been a worse POTUS in history? I doubt it. (I'm neither Republican or Democrat)

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[NoShitThereIWas 0]

"POTUS"? I am guessing that stands for Piece O Terrible Unscrupulous Shit???

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

[rushmc 23]

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"POTUS"? I am guessing that stands for Piece O Terrible Unscrupulous Shit???

BDS on full display!!

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Skyrad 0]

Greece, Roman, The Moors, The Ottamans, Us and now you....All good things come to an end (I wonder how you say Brother can you spare a dime? in Chinese?)

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Gawain 0]

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Looks like long term is my ONLY option now.

It wasn't your plan to begin with?

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Misternatural 0]

>>The Dow will probably go down another 500 tomorrow...

Did I type that out loud-clearly I meant UP 500 points

go figure, on a holiday no less.

Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires.
D S #3.1415

[georgerussia 0]

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My stocks took a bath today, but I'm holding. My mutual funds are down, but I'm holding.

Well, I'm buying. I'd be surprised if indexes do not make pre-bailout values in less than a year.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[Misternatural 0]

>>Well, I'm buying. I'd be surprised if indexes do not make pre-bailout values in less than a year.

Thats good-I guess anything can happen if I made money on Wachovia today, which I bought yesterday as a roll of the dice.

I have not sold into any declines but I am looking at some hefty paper losses as a result -not fun, The best bets right now are stocks with solid balance sheets and low debt +good fundamentals that pay a dividend while you wait, not many but they're out there.

Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires.
D S #3.1415

[Gawain 0]

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My stocks took a bath today, but I'm holding. My mutual funds are down, but I'm holding.

Well, I'm buying. I'd be surprised if indexes do not make pre-bailout values in less than a year.

I'm holding just through this week...

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[grimmie 186]

Skydivers talking "Wall Street"....what the hell will be next!!!!!!

[BDashe 0]

What do you propose we do? Enlighten us. We all know Dr. Phil is the most well informed economist in the country so he must be right.

It comes down to spending more than you make. Don't buy sh*t you can't afford (not you personally, just you the general populace). If the average american wasn't so greedy, NOT the big executives getting normal compensation for running billion dollar companies, anyway if the average american didn't want more than they needed and then actually try and fulfill all their wants, this wouldn't have happened in the first place.

The rich guys can afford their wants, they did something to earn that money somehow, they didn't wake up a CEO and demand they get paid 10 mil, there was 30+ years of work and risk prior to their stock option awards, which by the way are incentive to make a company do WELL. Anyway, it's when you live beyond your means that you fuck yourself sideways which is exactly what America did to itself.

So tell me, what is it that we do to make up for all this lack of personal responsibility? Listen to Dr. Phil yap away on late night TV?

So there I was...

Making friends and playing nice since 1983

[rhys 0]

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You do know that he leaves office in January?

Yes I do, and when he leaves there will be the repercussions of all the naughty little signatures he has made to make life easier for him and all his high roller mates.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[nerdgirl 0]

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I don't like the bailout plan at all for myriad reasons. I think the current crisis is a vestige of many things, looking back on it over the past few days. Greed, partisanship, and stupidity are three of the main factors I think - among many, many others.

Concur ... again ... this is getting to be a repeated habit.

One can cite greed, partisanship, and stupidity as factors ... but aren't those semi-constants as well?
Certainly weren't innovations of the last 25 years, eh?

And good greed drives capitalism to new innovation. The problem is how good greed (entrepeneurial capitalism) is encouraged/fostered versus how bad greed is minimized.

As the melamine poisonings of over 50,000 infants in Asia vividly illustrates, regulation without enforcement is not effective whether it be the US financial system or Chinese dairy system. [Edit to add: also a vivid example of where Austrian School economic theory fails; it relies too much an underlying assumption that people will *not* behave deleteriously, i.e., not add cheap poison to products.]

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[NoShitThereIWas 0]

I'm not sure what the solution is... All I can say is that I am responsible for my actions. I do not live beyond my means. When I was super poor, I paid $300 rent to live at my DZOs house and was a skydive bum. I worked hard at the same time to go to college and put myself through since my parents were unable to help out financially. I only acquired debt when I had to, that which was necessary for me to get ahead in the future. I worked hard and continue to work hard so I can provide a better life for my daughter and I.

That is my focus. Like you said, if I can't afford it, I don't buy it. I own 3 credit cards for emergencies and can see how crooked banks are by predatory lending and high interest rates. I choose not to play. I was almost in trouble with a variable ARM but once I got wind of all that BS I quickly refinanced over to a 30 year fixed.

For the Americans who have played their cards right and made sound decisions, those who were responsible with their finances, the last 5 years could have been an opportunity to refi at a low interest rate and get some cash out for improvements or to pay off debt. Perhaps put money away for a rainy day or even get ahead by investing in good solid investments. I don't think it is fair that we now all have to suffer the burden for those who did not and were not responsible. People who got greedy trying to buy numerous houses for profitability in a market that shoud not have supported it... Many had to have known that they were getting in way over their heads. Then, lenders, banks and brokers who lied, cheated and stole making exhorbinant amounts of money hand over fist like fat cats without any thought of the reprecussions. Those people who made those decisions should have to bail themselves out. And if those greedy fuckin banks need our help, we should get paid back with the ridiculous interest they choose to tack on and get a taste of their own medicine for a change.

As far as Dr. Phil goes, I think the guy is pretty bright. He may not be the world's great economist but he usually has something enlightening to add (Just my opinion).

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

[nerdgirl 0]

Interesting read overall. Thanks.

This caught my attention:

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So what in the world is happening now:
Hopefully, everything above gave you a fairly good idea of the background of the current economic landscape. So before I go into the dynamics of how that could work, I will desribe the current markets. We have Russia teetering on the brink of default, we have Spain, Ireland, much of Southeast Asia, and an enormous portion of emerging markets either in a worse housing crisis, a technical recession, or, for some other reason, in terrible shape.

Concur with underlying idea suggested by the quoted anonymous author: the economic crisis is global and systemic. As that bard of transparent financial verse noted last March: regulation will never keep up with innovation and new methods of hiding and manipulation in financial schemes: "risk models and econometric models – as complex as they have become, are still too simple to capture the full array of governing variables that drive global economic reality." Add globalization and interconnected/interdependent international markets into the mix and the situations becomes even more complicated.

The words also suggest a challenge to some of the causal explanations put forth regarding the US financial turmoil: anyone want to posit that Putin has implemented or allowed a program of affordable housing for poor people?

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[kallend 2,147]

Quote

Interesting read overall. Thanks.

This caught my attention:

Quote

So what in the world is happening now:
Hopefully, everything above gave you a fairly good idea of the background of the current economic landscape. So before I go into the dynamics of how that could work, I will desribe the current markets. We have Russia teetering on the brink of default, we have Spain, Ireland, much of Southeast Asia, and an enormous portion of emerging markets either in a worse housing crisis, a technical recession, or, for some other reason, in terrible shape.

Concur with underlying idea suggested by the quoted anonymous author: the economic crisis is global and systemic. As that bard of transparent financial verse noted last March: regulation will never keep up with innovation and new methods of hiding and manipulation in financial schemes: "risk models and econometric models – as complex as they have become, are still too simple to capture the full array of governing variables that drive global economic reality." Add globalization and interconnected/interdependent international markets into the mix and the situations becomes even more complicated.

The words also suggest a challenge to some of the causal explanations put forth regarding the US financial turmoil: anyone want to posit that Putin has implemented or allowed a program of affordable housing for poor people?

VR/Marg

But Marg, rushmc claims the state of the economy is[url "http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3348620#3348620"] just a hoax!

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[grimmie 186]

An interesting take on our overall position globally...
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080930.wcogray01/BNStory/specialComment/

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

Interesting read overall. Thanks.

This caught my attention:

Quote

So what in the world is happening now:
Hopefully, everything above gave you a fairly good idea of the background of the current economic landscape. So before I go into the dynamics of how that could work, I will desribe the current markets. We have Russia teetering on the brink of default, we have Spain, Ireland, much of Southeast Asia, and an enormous portion of emerging markets either in a worse housing crisis, a technical recession, or, for some other reason, in terrible shape.

Concur with underlying idea suggested by the quoted anonymous author: the economic crisis is global and systemic. As that bard of transparent financial verse noted last March: regulation will never keep up with innovation and new methods of hiding and manipulation in financial schemes: "risk models and econometric models – as complex as they have become, are still too simple to capture the full array of governing variables that drive global economic reality." Add globalization and interconnected/interdependent international markets into the mix and the situations becomes even more complicated.

The words also suggest a challenge to some of the causal explanations put forth regarding the US financial turmoil: anyone want to posit that Putin has implemented or allowed a program of affordable housing for poor people?

VR/Marg

But Marg, rushmc claims the state of the economy is[url "http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3348620#3348620"] just a hoax!

Ahhh, I see where you got it.

context my man, context.

But it ok. If true, more will come out. I will wait and see my self.

Its called self control

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[grimmie 186]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26964201/
More interesting stuff.

[rushmc 23]

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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26964201/
More interesting stuff.

Yes it is but, I have to wonder, is this near any truth (the gloom and doom parts) or more wishful thinking.

Hubs do not just move. It would seem more complex than that. Also, it lists bankrupcies as some kind of rampant happening. At least, as of today, I dont see that. Not yet anyway

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[FallingOsh 0]

Quote

Concur with underlying idea suggested by the quoted anonymous author: the economic crisis is global and systemic. As that bard of transparent financial verse noted last March: regulation will never keep up with innovation and new methods of hiding and manipulation in financial schemes: "risk models and econometric models – as complex as they have become, are still too simple to capture the full array of governing variables that drive global economic reality." Add globalization and interconnected/interdependent international markets into the mix and the situations becomes even more complicated.

The words also suggest a challenge to some of the causal explanations put forth regarding the US financial turmoil: anyone want to posit that Putin has implemented or allowed a program of affordable housing for poor people?

VR/Marg

So if regulation will never keep up with innovation, what do regulatory bodies do to keep tabs? Is there anything they can do but focus on more effectively enforcing current regs?

--------------------------------------------------
Stay positive and love your life.

[BDashe 0]

You make some decent points (except for Dr. Phil, the guy is a jack@$$ not even an M.D., he he he, my opinion)

I just can't stand to hear the term predatory lending. It's the new buzz word. It's an excuse for how your instant gratification loving american can point the finger at someone else. If these morons weren't greedy and did read what they were signing they wouldn't have gotten themselves in the situation to begin with.

It isn't entirely one sided, the lower level lenders should not have been so short sighted and pushed these loans out so much, but they are essentially in sales and if the customer is stupid enough to buy it, it is their job to sell it.

(time for an overgeneralization) No one can admit they're wrong and accept the consequences of their actions anymore. We've become a society of whiners that sue people over coffee being too hot. Maybe we deserve it. You gotta realize though, no one wins if all the banks go down, everyone loses in that scenario.

So there I was...

Making friends and playing nice since 1983

[rushmc 23]

I am going to keep bring this back. this guy knew what he was talking about in this Winter 2000 writing

http://www.city-journal.org/html/10_1_the_trillion_dollar.html

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None of these justifications holds up, however, because of the changes that reshaped America's banking industry in the 1990s. Banking in the 1970s, when CRA was passed, was a highly regulated industry in which small, local savings banks, rather than commercial banks, provided most home mortgages. Regulation prohibited savings banks from branching across state lines and sometimes even limited branching within states, inhibiting competition, the most powerful defense against discrimination. With such regulatory protection, savings banks could make a comfortable profit without doing the hard work of finding out which inner-city neighborhoods and borrowers were good risks and which were not. Savings banks also had reason to worry that if they charged inner-city borrowers a higher rate of interest to balance the additional risk of such lending, they might jeopardize the protection from competition they enjoyed. Thanks to these artificially created conditions, some redlining of creditworthy borrowers doubtless occurred.

The insular world of the savings banks collapsed in the early nineties, however, the moment it was exposed to competition. Banking today is a far more wide-open industry, with banks offering mortgages through the Internet, where they compete hotly with aggressive online mortgage companies. Standardized, computer-based scoring systems now rate the creditworthiness of applicants, and the giant, government-chartered Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac have helped create huge pools of credit by purchasing mortgage loans and packaging large numbers of them together into securities for sale to bond buyers. With such intense competition for profits and so much money available to lend, it's hard to imagine that banks couldn't instantly figure out how to market to minorities or would resist such efforts for fear of inspiring imitators. Nor has the race discrimination argument for CRA held up. A September 1999 study by Freddie Mac, for instance, confirmed what previous Federal Reserve and Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation studies had found: that African-Americans have disproportionate levels of credit problems, which explains why they have a harder time qualifying for mortgage money. As Freddie Mac found, blacks with incomes of $65,000 to $75,000 a year have on average worse credit records than whites making under $25,000.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[FallingOsh 0]

Couldn't agree more.

As you said, the problem is that the people drowning are pulling the rest down with them. Do we let them flail and risk drowning with them, or pull them back into the raft at our expense?

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Stay positive and love your life.