Now the NRA weighs in with some lies.

[deibido 0]

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I got down to the point of refuting the "armor piercing ammo" section. All rifle ammo is basically "armor piercing." It depends on what definition is used and in terms of what armor. Out of your 4 basic ballistic vests people (and cops) would typically wear, basically only a L4 would stop a rifle round. .308 is a popular hunting round. 30.6 is as well. Both of those will go through even a L3 vest.

I think the usual definition for "armor piercing" ammo is that it has a hard steel, tungsten or other high density metal core (D.U.)

No reason they should be illegal. That goes for Black Talons, HydraShok, Fragmentation rounds, Flechette . . .

If I could afford a Carl Gustav and Rounds for it, I should be allowed to use it for home defense.

"User assumes all risk"

[AggieDave 6]

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I think the usual definition for "armor piercing" ammo is that it has a hard steel, tungsten or other high density metal core (D.U.)

That is the definition typically used by educated persons. The fear mongers use the much broader definition that I referenced in a previous post.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[downwardspiral 0]

Gotta love the Raufoss Mk211 ammunition.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[JohnRich 4]

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However, the gun-o-phobes don't respect the choice of gun owners, and do try and take away their guns.

As I've said before, John, referring to exceedingly average middle-class NorthEasterners who've never been around guns in their life a "gun-o-phobes" - or someone referring to an ordinary Texan who grew up with and has been around firearms his whole life, as a "gun nut" - is exactly the kind of stridency that I'm referring to.

Note that I didn't refer to all ordinary non-gun-owning citizens as gun-o-phobes - only those that want to take guns away from gun owners. If you're someone who doesn't own a gun, but doesn't mind other people owning guns, then I don't have a problem with you, and I don't consider you a gun-o-phobe.

[JohnRich 4]

News:

Nobody Knows Obama's Record on Guns Better Than I Do

Speaking in the latest issue of "Field & Stream," Obama claims that Illinois sportsmen know him as an advocate for their rights. On the contrary, Obama's voting record while a state senator clearly indicates that he has nothing but contempt for the law-abiding firearm owner.

"Any sportsman who counts Barack Obama as one of his friends is seriously confused," said ISRA Executive Director Richard Pearson. "Throughout his tenure in the Illinois Senate, Obama served as one of the most loyal foot soldiers in Mayor Daley's campaign to abolish civilian firearm ownership. While a state senator, Obama voted for legislation that would ban and forcibly confiscate nearly every shotgun, target rifle and hunting rifle in the state. Obama also voted for bills that would ration the number of firearms a law-abiding citizen could own, yet give a pass to the violent thugs who roam our streets. And, inexplicably, Obama voted four times against legislation that would allow citizens to use firearms to defend their homes and families."

"Let us also not forget that Obama served as a director of the Joyce Foundation," continued Pearson. "While on the Joyce Foundation board, Obama funneled tens of millions of dollars to radical gun control organizations such as the Illinois Council Against Handgun Violence and the Violence Policy Center."

Source: Illinois State Rifle Association

[Andy9o8 3]

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However, the gun-o-phobes don't respect the choice of gun owners, and do try and take away their guns.

As I've said before, John, referring to exceedingly average middle-class NorthEasterners who've never been around guns in their life a "gun-o-phobes" - or someone referring to an ordinary Texan who grew up with and has been around firearms his whole life, as a "gun nut" - is exactly the kind of stridency that I'm referring to.

Note that I didn't refer to all ordinary non-gun-owning citizens as gun-o-phobes - only those that want to take guns away from gun owners. If you're someone who doesn't own a gun, but doesn't mind other people owning guns, then I don't have a problem with you, and I don't consider you a gun-o-phobe.

Then this is where you either rise to, or squander, the opportunity to change people's attitudes (or guide those attitudes, if they're undecided or on the fence) by patiently educating those people, rather than just turning them off by speaking ill of them. And just telling them, "Look, just don't try to take my gun away from me and we'll get along fine" won't do the trick, because that's not education, it's just a bottom line.

Joe and Jane Average from Hackensack, NJ aren't afraid that folks like you, or Aggie Dave, or Douva, etc. are going to harm them with your personal firearms, John. It's not so much that they want to take YOUR gun away from you per se; they just want to remove guns from society completely (by definition, including you, or me, or anyone not a cop) because they're under the impression that, with perseverance, that will eventually get guns out of the hands of the bad guys, and that will make society safer. These folks have never been around guns; guns are not a popular pasttime that is an integral part of their regional subculture; most of them have never been in the military; they don't hunt; they don't target-shoot, and they don't feel the need or desire to have a personal weapon to protect themselves or their suburban homes. To them, the only civilians who have guns are urban gang-bangers or possum-eatin' hillbillies.

http://www.bertc.com/possum.htm

Think their attitude is not just incorrect, but based upon misguided presumptions? Fine - then be an educator, and win them over.

[warpedskydiver 0]

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You're both right.
Thanks for prompting me to reconsider.
Renewal in progress.
Thirty Five dollars????

If you want an NRA life membership, let me know, you can be my "relative"

I am a distinguished lifetime member

[warpedskydiver 0]

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Gotta love the Raufoss Mk211 ammunition.

[downwardspiral 0]

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Think their attitude is not just incorrect, but based upon misguided presumptions? Fine - then be an educator, and win them over.

Why does the expression "you can bring a horse to water but you can't make him drink" come to mind?

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[Andy9o8 3]

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Think their attitude is not just incorrect, but based upon misguided presumptions? Fine - then be an educator, and win them over.

Why does the expression "you can bring a horse to water but you can't make him drink" come to mind?

Because people are inherently lazy, and the art of persuasion is often difficult.

[Andy9o8 3]

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I am a distinguished lifetime member

Well, you're a lifetime member.

[downwardspiral 0]

I know you argue for a living and I admire that but I find it interesting you find fault with the persuader rather than the persuadee.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[downwardspiral 0]

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Gotta love the Raufoss Mk211 ammunition.

I never got to play with it while I was in but I did get to see what .50 ball rounds will do to a light tank. I can't imagine what the Mk211 rounds will do.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[Andy9o8 3]

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I know you argue for a living and I admire that but I find it interesting you find fault with the persuader rather than the persuadee.

Not at all. Anyone can just argue; I'm urging him to BE a persuader.

[birdlike 0]

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Think their attitude is not just incorrect, but based upon misguided presumptions? Fine - then be an educator, and win them over.

Why does the expression "you can bring a horse to water but you can't make him drink" come to mind?

Because people are inherently lazy, and the art of persuasion is often difficult.

You actually think that it should be our (gun owners) responsibility to educate and win over people who have made the choice to hold irrational, illogical, bigoted and uninformed opinions of guns and gun owners?

Not only is that a MONUMENTAL weight to put onto gun owners' shoulders, it's not something we have the power to do. People make up their own minds, and we don't have the ability to override the prejudices of people in every nook and corner of society. At some point, people have to be held accountable for the choices they made to think the way they do.

Or is it the fault of black people across the country that they haven't pursuaded the bigoted types to stop thinking of them as "dumb niggers" (to borrow a phrase)?

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[downwardspiral 0]

Not that he needs any help but his original point was regarding the use of colorful phrases like gun-o-phobe and gun-nut and how it's not beneficial to actually educating or persuading someone.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[Andy9o8 3]

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You actually think that it should be our (gun owners) responsibility to educate and win over people who have made the choice to hold irrational, illogical, bigoted and uninformed opinions of guns and gun owners?

(The push-poll style of your question aside...)
If you want to be productive, then Yes. But, if you prefer to throw up your hands and have impasse, then choose impasse.

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that [is] a MONUMENTAL weight ...

Indeed. They usually are.

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it's not something we have the power to do. People make up their own minds, and we don't have the ability to override the prejudices of people in every nook and corner of society.

You underestimate your and other people's abilities. People rise to the occasion, if they have the perseverance and maturity. And you don't have to override everyone's prejudices, just those of enough people to begin making a difference. Plant the seeds. The seeds will become trees. The trees will shed acorns. The acorns will become a forest. All because you planted some seeds.

[billvon 3,130]

>Or is it the fault of black people across the country that they haven't pursuaded
>the bigoted types to stop thinking of them as "dumb niggers" (to borrow a phrase)?

The opposite is certainly true. It is BECAUSE of people like Martin Luther King, Thurgood Marshall, George Washington Carver, Colin Powell, Condoleeza Rice and now Barack Obama that many people have learned that blacks are not "dumb niggers." Had all of them said "well, heck, I don't have to worry about how blacks are seen; let someone else do it" then the cause of equality would not be as far along as it is now.

[Ron 10]

The NRA will get my money when they start trying to do something about the Hughes Amendment.

They didn't fight it then, and they said they would fight it later....20 years later and they still have not done anything.

The NRA is almost as bad as the Brady group...Maybe worse. They are willing to give away rights.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[warpedskydiver 0]

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I am a distinguished lifetime member

Well, you're a lifetime member.

DO YOU KNOW THE DIFFERENCE?

I think you were trying to be funny, but that illustrates your own opinion of me, and in reality shows your contempt for persons that are considered "Distinguished Lifetime Members"


Next time, look up the definition before you open your mouth.

BTW the mere fact you posted such a thing is really shitty of you.

Do you often demean other disabled veterans of the US Military?

How about you go take your lumps instead of one of us?

Care to trade places?

[Andy9o8 3]

Randall, you really need to take a breath. It was a joke.

[warpedskydiver 0]

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Randall, you really need to take a breath. It was a joke.

You need to take a breath and realize what you just did, you should be ashamed of yourself.

[kallend 2,174]

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I am a distinguished lifetime member

Well, you're a lifetime member.

DO YOU KNOW THE DIFFERENCE?

I think you were trying to be funny, but that illustrates your own opinion of me, and in reality shows your contempt for persons that are considered "Distinguished Lifetime Members"


Next time, look up the definition before you open your mouth.

BTW the mere fact you posted such a thing is really shitty of you.

Do you often demean other disabled veterans of the US Military?

How about you go take your lumps instead of one of us?

Care to trade places?

Well, all we really know about you is what you claim on your profile, which isn't much.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[warpedskydiver 0]

Your post shows what you are.

[Andy9o8 3]

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Do you often demean other disabled veterans of the US Military?
How about you go take your lumps instead of one of us?
Care to trade places?

??? This is ridiculous. I have no idea how you'd read something like that into the post, and I'm not going to argue it with you further. I'm sorry you were offended.