Religious Belief Throwdown

[jcd11235 0]

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you can't be an atheist and be on the fence

Agreed.

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you definately believe there is no god

Not true. You never have to even consider the concept of god to be an atheist. There is a significant difference between not believing in god and believing there is no god. Both are forms of atheism.

If someone were to live their life without ever being exposed to the concept of god, without ever even considering the possibility of the existence or non-existence of a supernatural being, that person would be an atheist.

Atheism does not require an active belief that there is no god.

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[Muenkel 0]

I'm contradicting myself. I said I was out of here but I want to make another post.

An example to look at is Mother Teresa. She gave up a wealthy life to work with the 'poorest of the poor' motivated by her religious beliefs. Talk about knowing reality, I dare you to say she did not see reality first hand.

What have you done with your life that contributed to the betterment of mankind? I'd like to compare the two.

_________________________________________
Chris

[jcd11235 0]

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An example to look at is Mother Teresa. She gave up a wealthy life to work with the 'poorest of the poor' motivated by her religious beliefs. Talk about knowing reality, I dare you to say she did not see reality first hand.

Mother Teresa is probably not the best example you could use. She had serious doubts about her faith for over fifty years, according to her correspondence with confessors.

She is an excellent example of how one need not believe in god to do good in the world.

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[Muenkel 0]

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An example to look at is Mother Teresa. She gave up a wealthy life to work with the 'poorest of the poor' motivated by her religious beliefs. Talk about knowing reality, I dare you to say she did not see reality first hand.

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Mother Theresa is probably not the best example you could use. She had serious doubts about her faith for over fifty years, according to her correspondence with confessors.

She is an excellent example of how one need not believe in god to do good in the world.

I knew this card would be pulled. It didn't take long either.

She is absolutely a great example. She experienced what is called a spiritual darkness. In her own words, she said she did her work because she sees Christ in every human being (perhaps not literally, but in her belief). She had blind faith, yet she continued her work selflessly. There was nothing in it for her that she could see, yet she did it. I don't have a fraction of that kind of selflessness. Heck, she accomplished more for the 'poorest of the poor' than many countries have done.

I will take a Mother Teresa and her brand of 'reality' over what I am seeing demonstrated in this thread.

_________________________________________
Chris

[jakee 1,596]

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I will take a Mother Teresa and her brand of 'reality' over what I am seeing demonstrated in this thread.

What a strange non-sequitur.

What do the works of one person have to do with a discussion about whether or not god exists? It has nothing to do with the discussion. Does someone need to be digging a well in Ethiopia at the same time as posting on this thread for their opinion about reaity to be valid? Should I say that because you haven't donated to charity on the scale of Bill gates it is a reason that your faith is wrong? Would that make sense? Of course it wouldn't

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Muenkel 0]

The OP of this thread is claiming that people who have a religious belief are not in touch with reality. I simply used an example that proves his theory false.

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Chris

[jakee 1,596]

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The OP of this thread is claiming that people who have a religious belief are not in touch with reality. I simply used an example that proves his theory false.

No it doesn't.

Regardless of what she saw or did during her life she, for what ever reason, decided to believe in god. Something which has absolutely no relation to reality.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jcd11235 0]

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She had blind faith, yet she continued her work selflessly.

No, she did not have blind faith; she doubted the existence of god.

Lord, my God, who am I that You should forsake me? The Child of your Love — and now become as the most hated one — the one — You have thrown away as unwanted — unloved. I call, I cling, I want — and there is no One to answer — no One on Whom I can cling — no, No One. — Alone ... Where is my Faith — even deep down right in there is nothing, but emptiness & darkness — My God — how painful is this unknown pain — I have no Faith — I dare not utter the words & thoughts that crowd in my heart — & make me suffer untold agony.

So many unanswered questions live within me afraid to uncover them — because of the blasphemy — If there be God — please forgive me — When I try to raise my thoughts to Heaven — there is such convicting emptiness that those very thoughts return like sharp knives & hurt my very soul. — I am told God loves me — and yet the reality of darkness & coldness & emptiness is so great that nothing touches my soul. Did I make a mistake in surrendering blindly to the Call of the Sacred Heart?.

Mother Teresa

Jesus has a very special love for you. As for me, the silence and the emptiness is so great that I look and do not see, listen and do not hear, the tongue moves but does not speak ... I want you to pray for me — that I let Him have free hand.

Mother Teresa

I utter words of Community prayers — and try my utmost to get out of every word the sweetness it has to give — But my prayer of union is not there any longer — I no longer pray.

Mother Teresa

Those are not words of someone with blind faith. Those are words of someone who doubts the very existence of god. That doesn't lessen her life's accomplishments any. If anything, it makes those accomplishments more impressive. It offers an example demonstrating that one needn't believe in god to do good things in the world.

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[Muenkel 0]

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The OP of this thread is claiming that people who have a religious belief are not in touch with reality. I simply used an example that proves his theory false.

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No it doesn't.

Regardless of what she saw or did during her life she, for what ever reason, decided to believe in god. Something which has absolutely no relation to reality.

Once again merely an opinion of what reality is. I believe actions speak louder than words and Mother Teresa's actions were heard around the world. Her motivation for doing what she did was noticed around the world. What she did in the name of her faith is well documented. That is reality.

Your reality is that god does not exist. That's fine. I respect the conclusion you have drawn. Just don't tell me that I am not in touch with reality because I believe in a deity. You're basically the same as a bible thumper, just in reverse.

_________________________________________
Chris

[jcd11235 0]

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The OP of this thread is claiming that people who have a religious belief are not in touch with reality. I simply used an example that proves his theory false.

No, you didn't. You used an example of someone who tried very hard and wanted very much to believe, yet couldn't.

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[jakee 1,596]

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I believe actions speak louder than words and Mother Teresa's actions were heard around the world. Her motivation for doing what she did was noticed around the world. What she did in the name of her faith is well documented. That is reality.

In the context of the thread - so what? What she did in the name of her faith has absolutely nothing to do with whether the object of her faith is real. Faith in God may lead to great and good works and it may lead to heinous crimes, but that is entirely seperate to whether or not God is real.

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Your reality is that god does not exist. That's fine. I respect the conclusion you have drawn. Just don't tell me that I am not in touch with reality because I believe in a deity.

I didn't. I have no doubt that you are just as aware of the reality of life on earth as I am. But I do support the OPs statements to the extent that where atheists stick with reality, people who believe in a deity stick something extra on top, something completely unnecessary and unsupportable and call that reality too. And they're wrong.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Muenkel 0]

Did you actually read those words. She suffered terribly with doubts about God, yet she continued to 'do His work' (her own words). This takes faith to the highest level.

This is going to sound arrogant of me for which I apologize. I speak only as a Catholic here and judge no one else. Those who strive to be holy in God's eyes will be tested over and over. It is the journey to holiness and complete union with the Holy Trinity. The reward, eternity in Heaven with complete union with God.

Someone who decides to take this path, will be tested over and over. This does not mean the individual is out of touch with reality.

_________________________________________
Chris

[jclalor 12]

Mother Teresa is not a great pick. she was a hippocrite of the worse kind. The medical care she gave was horrendous. She was no friend to the poor but a friend to poverty. She believed suffering brought one closer to god.
when one considers the tens of millions she received from well meaning donors her care was pathetic. Have you ever seen pictures of her home for the dyings in Calcutta? no beds very few meds let alone pain killers.
One of her favorite lines when someone complained about the pain was to say " when you feel pain, thats Jesus kissing you" to witch one replied " tell him to stop kissing me".
There always seemed to be plenty of money when it came to building convents that bared her name. Several hundred were built with funds that were donated with the understanding they would help the poor.
With her staunch catholic view on birth control she doomed countless women to lives stuck in abject poverty.
When it came to her health care things were different, flying to western countries to receive the best care available.
When Ireland tried to outlaw divorice, she was a staunch proponent. When Princess D, one of her close friends divoriced Charles, she said she was very happy for her and hoped Dianna would now have a happy life.
A big contributer was Charles keating. When the US attorney general prosecuting his S&L scam, sent a letter to Teresa asking that the stolen funds she received be given back to the elderly that had been swindled, she never replied.
Many volunteers from the west that went to India to work with her left disgusted.

I know that you will find this all BS but if you SEEK
the truth google it. you will even find the letter from the AG.
I do also believe their have many Christian who have done wonderful things for the poor.

[jcd11235 0]

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Did you actually read those words.

Yes, I did. Did you? If so, then you understand that she doubted the existence of god, according to her own words.

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She suffered terribly with doubts about God, yet she continued to 'do His work' (her own words). This takes faith to the highest level.

She continued to do work that benefited the poor, because she had faith that it was the right thing to do. That doesn't imply that she retained faith in god.

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[Muenkel 0]

I can only say that we disagree. That is fine as we are both entitled.

Hell, if we all agreed on everything, the world would probably be more screwed up than it is.

_________________________________________
Chris

[maadmax 0]

Yes, I did. Did you? If so, then you understand that she doubted the existence of god, according to her own words.***

This is not a big spiritual revelation. Every one who chooses to seek God will experience doubts. We either fall by the wayside and become like you, or out of the depths of despair our faith becomes renewed and we rise like the phoenix. I know exactly how she felt, I have been there many times myself. I thank God that I didn't stay there and I know she didn't either.

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[likearock 2]

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>>> Requesting that assertions be proved with evidence

Okay. Give me evidence that there is no god. I mean emprical studies designed to demonstrat the lack.
…

Therein lies the issue. There is a similar lack of evidence to support or deny the existence. That's why it is dogmatic.

Based on what evidence should anyone even consider the existence of a supernatural being? We are all born as atheists, with no concept of a supernatural god. We have to be taught, or some would say, brainwashed, in order to believe in such a concept.

While that may be true to a degree, logic dictates that if you follow the chain of teaching/brainwashing back far enough, you must necessarily come to a starting point of someone who wasn't being taught/brainwashed. That is, unless you believe this didactic process has been going on since we evolved from amoebas.

It's amazing to me that the discussion has gotten this far without anyone at least providing a working definition of God. Without that, it's pretty meaningless to say God exists, doesn't exist, or make any claims regarding whether supporting evidence exists. So let's say for the sake of argument that God represents a sentient power that spans the universe. Feel free to refine this definition if you see fit.

Two questions:

• Do you believe that there is such a thing as spirituality and, if so, what is its source?
• How do you account for the fact that similar religious beliefs sprang up independently in a number of different cultures, many of which had no communication with the other?

Make no mistake about it, none of the above is evidence that God exists. But it does provide some justification for those of us who choose to remain open minded about the prospect of there being a God.

The most scientific approach is to admit that we simply don't know. God probably doesn't exist but we have nothing like a logical proof by contradiction that rules the whole thing out. But that's not enough for the "strong" atheists. They need to believe in God's non-existence as badly as the strong theists need to believe in God.

[jcd11235 0]

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I thank God that I didn't stay there and I know she didn't either.

If you consider being there for over 50 years not staying there, then yes, you're right.

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[billvon 3,119]

>The Wright brothers built on what was known.

Absolutely. They didn't do it on their own, they all stood on the shoulders of giants.

>However, we have observed planets in our own solar system.

Right. And thus there MIGHT be Earthlike planets around other stars - but there is no direct EVIDENCE that there is. Thus, the statement "that for which there is no evidence must be considered unreal" is false.

[akarunway 1]

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I'm contradicting myself. I said I was out of here but I want to make another post.

An example to look at is Mother Teresa. She gave up a wealthy life to work with the 'poorest of the poor' motivated by her religious beliefs. Talk about knowing reality, I dare you to say she did not see reality first hand.

What have you done with your life that contributed to the betterment of mankind? I'd like to compare the two.

I build powerhouses so you can have electricity to spew your religious crap.

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[jcd11235 0]

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While that may be true to a degree, logic dictates that if you follow the chain of teaching/brainwashing back far enough, you must necessarily come to a starting point of someone who wasn't being taught/brainwashed.

Right. Initially someone made up the initial fable. Heck, initially, it may have even been a non-fiction account told for the sake of posterity. Like memories, each retelling was a little bit different, with details changing here and there, sometimes being added for the benefit of the audience. Eventually, it had morphed into something that had little to no basis in reality.

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So let's say for the sake of argument that God represents a sentient power that spans the universe. Feel free to refine this definition if you see fit.

Spans the universe in the sense that it is fully contained within the universe, but requires the entire universe to be contained (i.e. God == universe)? That's easy. In that case, god exists and is readily observable. One could even credibly argue that such a god is consistent with the teachings of Christ and Christianity prior to the Council of Nicea. The modern Christian church, however, teaches the existence of a supernatural god, which would not fit within the confines of that definition.

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Two questions:

• Do you believe that there is such a thing as spirituality and, if so, what is its source

Please define spirituality.

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• How do you account for the fact that similar religious beliefs sprang up independently in a number of different cultures, many of which had no communication with the other?

It could be due to one or more of several explanations. The cultures could have had nearly no communication with one another, but still have had a limited number of persons who traveled between their locales. That would allow religious teachings to be passed between cultures, in much the same way mathematics have passed between cultures. While the nature of mathematics would allow for consistency of concepts through such transfers, the nature of historical/religious teachings would not have the same built in safeguards.

Another possibility is that as cultures developed, the each found many of the same moral practices useful for the survival/success of the people. Similar fables could have been created within different cultures to help teach these moral values.

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Make no mistake about it, none of the above is evidence that God exists. But it does provide some justification for those of us who choose to remain open minded about the prospect of there being a God.

Many atheists are open minded to the possibility of the existence of god. As soon as there is some evidence to suggest that such an entity should be considered, they will consider it. Just like with water on Mars, we didn't start with hard evidence of its existence. Before we had such evidence, we had evidence to suggest the reasonable possibility, evidence that warranted further investigation. Thus far, there is no credible evidence to suggest that possible existence of a supernatural being, nothing to warrant investigation. The same could be said of the existence of zombies or Godzilla.

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The most scientific approach is to admit that we simply don't know.

No, the most scientific approach is to wait to consider the possibility until we make observations suggesting the existence of a supernatural god is a reasonable possibility.

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God probably doesn't exist but we have nothing like a logical proof by contradiction that rules the whole thing out.

To be fair, we can logically prove that an omniscient creator cannot create beings with freewill. We can also find paradox in the concept of omnipotence (i.e. Can an omnipotent being create a rod that even that omnipotent being cannot bend?). While we can't wholly disprove the possibility of a supernatural god, we can logically deduce limitations of the characteristics of such an entity and any of its creations.

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[deibido 0]

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>Right. And thus there MIGHT be Earthlike planets around other stars - but there is no direct EVIDENCE that there is. Thus, the statement "that for which there is no evidence must be considered unreal" is false.

As far as we know, there are no Earthlike planets around other stars. However, there is a very high statistical probability that they do exist.

As far as we know, there is no entity known as "God".
It is a possibility, however it is currently completely unsupported.

We know that at least one Earthlike planet does in fact exist. We have no such knowledge of any metaphysical beings.

"User assumes all risk"

[billvon 3,119]

>As far as we know, there are no Earthlike planets around other stars.
>However, there is a very high statistical probability that they do exist.

Agreed. Just because there is no direct evidence for the existence of other earthlike planets does not mean they are unreal.

[jclalor 12]

This is Charles Keating. He stole $252,000,000 (£126,671,335) from people who he tricked into thinking they were making low risk investments, but were in fact funding his exuberant lifestyle and his frothing at the mouth hate campaign against anything non-catholic which he considered to be therefore pornographic and sinful.

Mother Teresa really liked Charles Keating. So much so, in fact, did she really not want him to go to prison, for fleecing thousands of hard working Americans out of millions of dollars, some of which she had gratefully received as gifts from Keating, that she wrote to the trial judge on his behalf, begging for the understanding Jesus would show to such a generous man.



Mother Teresa's letter to judge Ito in the trial of Charles Keating, taken from Christopher Hitchen's book 'The Missionairy Position: Mother Teresa in theory and practise'
In her letter to the judge, she claimed to know nothing of Mr. Keating’s business or politics. To remind her of these trifling details, the deputy district attorney replied to Mother Teresa - explaining in no uncertain terms that, in his view, Jesus himself, if confronted with a man like Keating, would have no qualms about returning the money which had been given to him as it had been given to her, by a confidence trickster of Mr. Keating’s gaul and self-righteous insistence that other people are to blame for his actions.

Dear Mother Teresa:
I am a Deputy District Attorney in Los Angeles County and one of the persons who worked on the prosecution of your benefactor, Charles H. Keating, Jr. I read your letter to Judge Ito, written on behalf of Mr. Keating, which includes your admission that you know nothing about Mr. Keating’s business or the criminal charges presented to Judge Ito. I am writing to you to provide a brief explanation of the crimes of which Mr. Keating has been convicted, to give you an understanding of the source of the money that Mr. Keating gave to you, and to suggest that you perform the moral and ethical act of returning the money to its rightful owners.

The biblical slogan of your organization is ‘As long as you did it to one of these My least brethren. You did it to Me’. The ‘least’ of the brethren are among those whom Mr. Keating fleeced without flinching. As you well know, divine forgiveness is available to all, but forgiveness must be preceded by admission of sin. Not only has Mr. Keating failed to admit his sins and his crimes, he persists in selfrighteously blaming others for his own misdeeds. Your experience is, admirably, with the poor. My experience has been with the ‘con’ man and the perpetrator of the fraud. It is not uncommon for ‘con’ men to be generous with family, friends and charities. Perhaps they believe that their generosity will purchase love, respect or forgiveness. However, the time when the purchase of ‘indulgences’ was an acceptable method of seeking forgiveness died with the Reformation. No church, no charity, no organisation should allow itself to be used as salve for the conscience of the criminal.


Mother Teresa meeting the then head of the world's oldest intelligence agency and executor of the richest tax exempt organisation in the world.
I remind myself of the biblical admonition of the Prophet Micah: ‘0 man, what is good and what does the Lord require of you. To do justice, love mercy and walk humbly.’ We are urged to love mercy but we must do justice. You urge Judge Ito to look into his heart - as he sentences Charles Keating - and do what Jesus would do. I submit the same challenge to you.

Ask yourself what Jesus would do if he were given the fruits of a crime; what Jesus would do if he were in possession of money that had been stolen; what Jesus would do if he were being exploited by a thief to ease his conscience? I submit that Jesus would promptly and unhesitatingly return the stolen property to its rightful owners. You should do the same. You have been given money by Mr. Keating that he has been convicted of stealing by fraud. Do not permit him the ‘indulgence’ he desires. Do not keep the money. Return it to those who worked for it and earned it!

If you contact me I will put you in direct contact with the rightful owners of the property now in your possession.

To this day Paul W. Turley awaits a reply from Mother Teresa, as do the thousands of people Charles Keating swindled. If she is the shining light of Catholic Christian values; the torch barer of all that is moral and good, we are constantly told by the religious only those with faith in God can espouse and exude, you’ll forgive me if I don’t hold my breath while waiting for someone to effectually e

[deibido 0]

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So let's say for the sake of argument that God represents a sentient power that spans the universe. Feel free to refine this definition if you see fit.

I did post a definition of God, but it boils down to basically what you said.

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Two questions:

• Do you believe that there is such a thing as spirituality and, if so, what is its source?
• How do you account for the fact that similar religious beliefs sprang up independently in a number of different cultures, many of which had no communication with the other?

Spirituality certainly does exist, but that does not mean that a spirit must also exist.

Now for question two, I will completely change gears, so I apologize in advance for hijacking my own thread.

How did so many similar myths arise in such diverse cultures? Why do all ancient peoples speak of "gods" that traveled in the sky, created humanity and many other things, often lead their armies into battle and employed devastating weapons in combat, and gave humans most of its early knowledge?

In particular, why are they always described as "descending from the heavens" often in firey "chariots".

Could it be that the "gods" had actual physical existence in those days? Could it have been an alien race from the stars? Could these ancient peoples merely have been describing fantastic technologies in the only words they had?

Could these "gods" still be here among us?

Possibly, but there is no direct evidence to support it.

"User assumes all risk"