Islamic Failure

[billvon 3,116]

>You provide me with actual Bible references that support what you just said . . .

Leviticus 20:13 - If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.

Exodus 21:2-6 - If you buy a Hebrew servant, he shall serve six years; and in the seventh he shall go out free and pay nothing. If he comes in by himself, he shall go out by himself; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master has given him a wife, and she has borne him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master’s, and he shall go out by himself. But if the servant plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’ then his master shall bring him to the judges. He shall also bring him to the door, or to the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him forever.

Exodus 21:20-21 - And if a man beats his male or female servant with a rod, so that he dies under his hand, he shall surely be punished. Notwithstanding, if he remains alive a day or two, he shall not be punished; for he is his property.

"There is not one verse in the Bible inhibiting slavery, but many regulating it. It is not then, we conclude, immoral." Rev. Alexander Campbell

Leviticus 11:7 - And the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you.

[Skyrad 0]

Thanks. beat me to it.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[SpeedRacer 1]

except that he said

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taking both the Old and New Testament into account as whole

And if you take the whole Bible into account, the idea is that with Jesus we get a whole new covenant, so we don't have to do circumcision, dietary laws, and all that other crap.

Speed Racer
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[Braz933 0]

All the references you posted are Old Testament. The Bible is to be viewed as whole.

SpeedRacer is correct. The Old Testament was a covenant between God and Israel, meant for a time. That period of time is often referred to as the dispensation of the law, also as the law of sin and death.

The life, death, and resurrection of Jesus ushered in a new covenant between God and man. A covenant not only meant for Israel, but for all people, which provides for grace and forgiveness from sin, rather than the harsh consequences of sin and death under the old law.

Now, that is not to say that the 10 commandments and other teachings of the Old Testament are no longer valid. What it means is that rather than death being the immediate result of sin, we are now offered forgiveness.

A few supporting references follow.

Ephesians 2:13-16

13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

Colossians 2:13-17

13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. 16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Romans 7:1-7 (New King James Version)

1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”[a]

Hebrews 8:6-13

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah — 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds[a] I will remember no more.”
13 In that He says, “A new covenant, ” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

[Squeak 17]

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All the references you posted are Old Testament. The Bible is to be viewed as whole.

SpeedRacer is correct. The Old Testament was a covenant between God and Israel, meant for a time.

If that only meant for THAT time why is the new testament supposed to be meant for current time, which are millennia later

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[billvon 3,116]

> All the references you posted are Old Testament.

You are correct! In other words, you (like most people) pick and choose which parts of the Bible to believe. You reject the parts of the Old Testament that you dislike because, in your words, it was only "meant for a time."

That is 100% fine. Just don't get bent out of shape when other people pick and choose what they believe as well.

[Braz933 0]

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If that only meant for THAT time why is the new testament supposed to be meant for current time, which are millennia later

I was referring to the Old Testament. It was meant for that period in history, in specific application to Israel.

[Braz933 0]

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You are correct! In other words, you (like most people) pick and choose which parts of the Bible to believe. You reject the parts of the Old Testament that you dislike because, in your words, it was only "meant for a time."

That is 100% fine. Just don't get bent out of shape when other people pick and choose what they believe as well.

I must disagree. As I said, when the Bible is taken as a whole, I am not picking and choosing. The parts that no longer apply have been dismissed, therefore not even open to be chosen or rejected.

At any rate, I know what you are driving at.

[Braz933 0]

Darius,

I apologize for the attack. I was under the impression that rock music, particularly heavy metal, was not generally not allowed in Islam. I'm fairly certain that is the case in some forms of Islam. Apparently not yours. Nevertheless, my tone was uncalled for. My bad.

Braz

[billvon 3,116]

>I am not picking and choosing.

OK. Show me where in the New Testament slavery is forbidden. That will allow you to demonstrate that "taking the Bible as a whole" leads you to believe that it does not condone slavery.

A few tidbits:


Matthew 18: Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made.

Ephesians 6: Bondservants, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in sincerity of heart, as to Christ . . .

Luke 12: But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few.

>The parts that no longer apply have been dismissed . . .

Ah! Fair enough. In that case, do not condemn others for "dismissing" different parts than you choose to.

[Skyrad 0]

The Koran can also be divided into two parts. Pre the flight to Medina and post. Like the Old Testament the Sword verses are contained in the Post flight part of the Koran the peaceful verses are fund in the pre flight part. If a Christian exremist group founded on the techings of the Old Testament became prominant in the world for hate attacks against blacks or homosexuals would that make you a lesser Christian? Would it make what they believe the true coarse of Christianity? Because after all more people in non Christian countries would hear about them on a regular basis.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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Now, that is not to say that the 10 commandments and other teachings of the Old Testament are no longer valid.

So some parts of the Old Testament are valid and some are not... So in other words you pick and choose which bits are relevant.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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You are correct! In other words, you (like most people) pick and choose which parts of the Bible to believe. You reject the parts of the Old Testament that you dislike because, in your words, it was only "meant for a time."

That is 100% fine. Just don't get bent out of shape when other people pick and choose what they believe as well.

I must disagree. As I said, when the Bible is taken as a whole, I am not picking and choosing. The parts that no longer apply have been dismissed, therefore not even open to be chosen or rejected.

At any rate, I know what you are driving at.

So someone chose which bits cancel out the previous, yet it remains that all of the point previously mentioned are contained in the Bible.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Andy9o8 2]

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All the references you posted are Old Testament. The Bible is to be viewed as whole.
etc., etc.

You know, I just became a rich man, because when I saw what you posted yesterday, I bet myself $50 that you were setting up to say this today. And, predictably, you did. Thanks for the windfall.

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The Old Testament was a covenant between God and Israel, meant for a time. .... The life, death, and resurrection of Jesus ushered in a new covenant between God and man. A covenant not only meant for Israel, but for all people,...

How convenient! The perfect circular logic.

But wait! The Koran well post-dated the New Testament, and that made the New Testament obsolete. So screw that winpy "forgiveness and redemption" pablum; The Word Of God is no longer about salvation, it's about justice.

But wait! The Book of Mormon well post dated the Koran, so... etc., etc.

Why don't we just distill this down to its intellectually honest essence: your Flying Spaghetti Monster is The True Word Of God For All Humanity For Eternity; while everyone else's Spaghetti Monster is just "superstition", or at best, obsolete.

OK, glad we cleared that up.

[Andy9o8 2]

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I was under the impression that rock music, particularly heavy metal, was not generally not allowed in Islam. I'm fairly certain that is the case in some forms of Islam.

No. The only Western music that Islam forbids as an abomination is Neil Diamond and Barry Manilow. That's because ... it's an abomination. Some Truth really is universal.

[vortexring 0]

How dare you describe Mr Diamonds music as an abomination!

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'