Palin's church wants to "pray away the gay"

[billvon 3,118]

>Bill you know as well as I do that this country was founded on christian beliefs.

No, actually it was founded on the idea of religious freedom, since many of the early settlers were fleeing a state religion. You'd have to be blind to miss that.

It was, of course, founded by christians, and their collective experiences shaped the original documents and the language those documents used. Language, however, is not the same as intent. Saying "bless you" when someone sneezes does not denote religious intent, any more than celebrating halloween makes you a pagan.

If you're actually interested in this, an excellent book on the subject is Lambert's "The founding fathers and the place of religion in America." A synopsys of the book:

===========================
How did the United States, founded as colonies with explicitly religious aspirations, come to be the first modern state whose commitment to the separation of church and state was reflected in its constitution? Frank Lambert explains why this happened, offering in the process a synthesis of American history from the first British arrivals through Thomas Jefferson's controversial presidency. Lambert recognizes that two sets of spiritual fathers defined the place of religion in early America: what Lambert calls the Planting Fathers, who brought Old World ideas and dreams of building a "City upon a Hill," and the Founding Fathers, who determined the constitutional arrangement of religion in the new republic. While the former proselytized the "one true faith," the latter emphasized religious freedom over religious purity. Lambert locates this shift in the mid-eighteenth century. In the wake of evangelical revival, immigration by new dissenters, and population expansion, there emerged a marketplace of religion characterized by sectarian competition, pluralism, and widened choice. During the American Revolution, dissenters found sympathetic lawmakers who favored separating church and state, and the free marketplace of religion gained legal status as the Founders began the daunting task of uniting thirteen disparate colonies. To avoid discord in an increasingly pluralistic and contentious society, the Founders left the religious arena free of government intervention save for the guarantee of free exercise for all. Religious people and groups were also free to seek political influence, ensuring that religion's place in America would always be a contested one, but never a state-regulated one. An engaging and highly readable account of early American history, this book shows how religious freedom came to be recognized not merely as toleration of dissent but as a natural right to be enjoyed by all Americans.
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[airdvr 210]

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I understand everyone's concern with Palin's pro-life/no exceptions stance. I have a problem with it. But it's not gonna happen. I don't think the government will ever attempt to take that right away from women

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It IS part of the official 2008 Republican Party Platform. So they sure WANT to do it.

They want to do lots of things...so do Dems. I don't think it's going to change. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm against abortion and pro-choice at the same time. I beleive it's murder, but I don't believe I have the right to impose my views on women. I believe the decision ultimatley lies with them, and they have to live with the consequences.

I got a girl pregnant when I was 16. She had an abortion. No one knew about it. I'm torn by that sequence of events. Today I would have a 33 year old son or daughter. That didn't hit home until my children were born. But I also know it was the correct decision at the time. I'm glad I had that option. I think deep down alot of conservatives feel as I do.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[airdvr 210]

It was, of course, founded by christians, and their collective experiences shaped the original documents and the language those documents used. Language, however, is not the same as intent. Saying "bless you" when someone sneezes does not denote religious intent, any more than celebrating halloween makes you a pagan.

Good point. However, just about every leader this country has drawn on their faith in Christianity to guide their decision making process. It's still the moral compass the founding fathers used for their ideas...for their knowledge of right v. wrong.

For the record I'm not a religious man. Radical religion in all forms makes me nervous as hell.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[billvon 3,118]

>It's still the moral compass the founding fathers used for their ideas...

Well, except for people like Jefferson and Washington, who were pretty clearly part-time christians at best. A few quotes:

"We have abundant reason to rejoice that in this Land the light of truth and reason has triumphed over the power of bigotry and superstition ... In this enlightened Age and in this Land of equal liberty it is our boast, that a man's religious tenets will not forfeit the protection of the Laws, nor deprive him of the right of attaining and holding the highest Offices that are known in the United States."

"Every man, conducting himself as a good citizen, and being accountable to God alone for his religious opinions, ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience."

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear."

"I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians."

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes. "

But the underlying idea that they were all christians and all had the same basic moral underpinning is certainly a valid one. They wrote that document as christians because that was, by far, the dominant religion of the time - just as today we might write documents assuming that Homo Sapiens is the only intelligent species on the planet. If we do someday discover some living Homo Floresiensis remaining in Indonesia somewhere, it would be inaccurate to say "well, we obviously intended the US to be a Homo Sapiens nation" - we simply didn't know that anything else really existed when we wrote the documents.

Indeed, the great wisdom of the founding fathers was that, despite the clear ubiquity of christianity, they had the vision to plan for a country that did not rely upon or require it.

[birdlike 0]

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why the hell do people get freaked out when a black preacher says it, but not when its a white, right-leaning preacher?

I don't like it when anyone does it. Did I ever proclaim support for the ones you mentioned?

It freaks me out because this black preacher has a follower of 20 years who might become our PRESIDENT. And this man did not think to disavow the HATRED that his PREACHER spewed until he was cornered into doing so.

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[rushmc 23]

Remember "there is no liberal of conservative America, only a United States of America" Obama 2004 DNC

[Andy9o8 2]

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Bill you know as well as I do that this country was founded on christian beliefs. You'd have to be blind to miss that. References towards God and christianity have gone hand in hand with every administration.

Second Inaugural Address of Abraham Lincoln
SATURDAY, MARCH 4, 1865

...With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in

Inaugural Address of John F. Kennedy
FRIDAY, JANUARY 20, 1961

For I have sworn before you and Almighty God the same solemn oath our forebears prescribed nearly a century and three quarters ago.
http://www.yale.edu/...iden/inaug/inaug.htm

Even the President's Oath of Office is recited with a hand on the bible.

I've re-read this several times, but I see no reference to Jesus Christ or the Holy Trinity. Did I miss it? (Surely you don't mean "malice toward none" or "charity", do you? Those concepts are hardly exclusive to Christianity.)

[billvon 3,118]

>And this man did not think to disavow the HATRED that his PREACHER
>spewed until he was cornered into doing so.

Which merely makes him identical to McCain, who actively sought out Hagee's endorsement, and did not disavow the hatred Hagee spewed until he was forced to do so.

Actually, arguably McCain has a bigger preacher problem, since he also sought an endorsement from Parsley, a preacher who thinks Hitler was performing God's will and that the US performs genocide against blacks.

In both cases it's a tempest in a teapot. People are responsible for what they say, not what their preachers say.

[airdvr 210]

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I've re-read this several times, but I see no reference to Jesus Christ or the Holy Trinity. Did I miss it? (Surely you don't mean "malice toward none" or "charity", do you? Those concepts are hardly exclusive to Christianity.)

I'm not stating that the founding fathers didn't do an excellent job of trying to ensure that the government didn't endorse one religion over another. But the prevailing religion of our leaders has been Christianity...and it's principles. And it comes into play all the time.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[billvon 3,118]

>But the prevailing religion of our leaders has been Christianity...

Agreed.

>and it's principles.

Who is "it's?" Did you mean our leaders? If so, then christian leaders do indeed often have christian principles, which in general are similar to everyone else's principles.

Whether a leader is christian, jewish or muslim has as much bearing on their ability to lead as their race or sexual orientation. In all cases, it is the person, not their religion, race or sexual orientation, that determines who will be a good leader.