September 11th, 2001

[Gawain 0]

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but when I see ROTC cadets whose major achievement is marching mostly in step with the other cadets and they have two rows of medal ribbons on their uniforms, I have to wonder.

So now you mean ROTC?

ROTC is not active duty...cadets in ROTC and the military colleges get all sorts of badges and awards of achievement when they are done, not all of that follows to active duty.

Not just ROTC (which IS part of the military). Medals seem to be given away like candy these days, so it's hard to distinguish between someone who's really done something special and someone who got medals just for staying awake while sitting in a missile silo somewhere.

The US Army Accession Command overseas ROTC, but not all cadets are contracted and not every cadet gets a commission. That doesn't make them a REMF (assuming you know what that means).

Again, I ask you for specifics, and you can offer none. You should know that the way you cite this supposedly common practice belittles the service of those in the armed forces. There are shitbags in every sector. You are often quick to point the finger and in this regard, you do not know what you are talking about.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[warpedskydiver 0]

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...medals and accolades to military REMFs who spend their careers behind desks, ...

Share some specifics on this please (assuming you know)?

The majority of those in the armed forces have not been deployed for a variety of reasons, and while some may think it's "unfair", the units that have gone over, time and again, were designed to do so. The "REMFs" have a job to do too...I can speak fondly of many in the North Atlantic Regional Medical Command that no one in our country should be ashamed of if they did not deploy.

Local communities love their fire departments. Nations love their armies.

I'm sure REMFs have important jobs to do, but when I see ROTC cadets whose major achievement is marching mostly in step with the other cadets and they have two rows of medal ribbons on their uniforms, I have to wonder.

You think ROTC cadets have medals for something meaningful?

fuck they are not even real soldiers, otherwise you would not be in charge of them.

[FallingOsh 0]

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Arabs are still allowed on flights today.
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How idiotic is that ???

Best regards from the Stone Age

it was stated as fact. not like we should stop it. he was saying that airport securtiy would've stopped 911. my argument is that the attackers took over with box cutters. no amount of airport security would stop arabs from getting on a plane. that's rediculous.


thanks for chiming in, though.

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Stay positive and love your life.

[FallingOsh 0]

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There were a number of failures at every level of the US Government that allowed Sept. 11th to happen.

I wasn't blaming Bush for it being on "His watch". I just find it sad that everyone wants to fight terror and terrorists, but no one has gotten Bin laden yet.

Here's an analogy.
Charlie Manson had his folowers murder a bunch of innocent folks. He did none of the murdering himself.
The LAPD had some run ins with him.
They knew he was a nutter.
After the murders the LAPD found him and tried him.
Was it the police chief's fault his deciples murdered those folks?
Should he have been allowed to hide out and brainwash more followers to do harm to innocent people?

So just because we failed to prevent the attacks, Bin Laden should be allowed to go free after 7 years???

We could start an entire other thread to the ineptness of government agencies to work together.

September 11th happened because of millions of things that happened to allow it.

Should the pilots be at fault because they didn't recognize the situation and go zero-g and pin those bastards to the roof of the planes???

Blame shouldn't be placed. Bin Laden should be found.

Some communities love their fire dept., others not so much until they are needed.

Bin Laden hasn't been "allowed" to go free. Your analogy implies we found him and let him go. He's probably hiding in Pakistan and they aren't cooperating.

Purely agrumentative... if the pilots pulled negative G then it wouldn't pin them to the ceiling. They, along with everyone else, would just float. It would probably flame out the engines, though.

--------------------------------------------------
Stay positive and love your life.

[Lucky... 0]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Bush is not my dingleberry. He is an idiot. I had hope for him 8 years ago but he turned out to be a dismal failure.


Did you vote for him 4 years ago too?


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Also I do not absolve him of any responsibility regarding September 11th, 2001.


Well, it was really a collaborative effort of at least him, CLinton and GHWB, really many more. GWB had 8 montsh to figure itout, he was too busy being enamoured with himself as pres, CLinton was too busy unfcuking 12 years of fascist Ronnie economics and didn't want to spend money on anything else and the whole thing was instigated by GWHB, who didn't finish the job, altho I think the quick pullout was right, but he should have followed up with better port security. You piss of the neighbors, you watch your house a lot better. I hear idiocy of blaming Clinton all the time, GWB had 8 in which he did zero; port security, esp airport security could have been done in 1 or 2 months easily. And if he tried to apportion $$$ for it and COngress refused, it would then be on him, but he was also too arrogant and apathetic. Altho I didn;t read it, the 911 commission blamed largely him and Clinton, I think GHWB should enjoy some of that too, and American arrogance as a way of thining we were impervious is also to blame.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.However, the point is, this was a failure as a nation. As much as we all like to Bush bash....WE failed as a nation. WE did. And WE continue to do so.


Uh, we are successful as a nation as far as security now. We are a failure as a nation regarding other issues like anything fiscal as a direcct result off neo-con economics, esp Bush.

I don't have my speakers yet, but I will get off my ass and install em and watch it soon.

[Lucky... 0]

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Actually it's pretty well documented that PResident clinton gutted the CIA and it's network.

One assessment by the slanted NY Times.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9404EFD91039F933A2575AC0A9669C8B63

That article supports me so much more than you.

The spy agency has been struggling for its footing since the end of the cold war robbed it of its core mission.


Newsflash, that was 4 months into the GHWB term, almost 4 years before Clinton.


Senior intelligence officials say the C.I.A. has regained much of its strength under George Tenet, who became its director in July 1997.

So shortly into Clinton's 2nd term.


Certainly, the story begins with the fall of the Berlin Wall and the implosion of the Soviet Union. Lacking a clear mission, the C.I.A. became a target for budget cutting. The agency's espionage arm shrank, and overseas stations in Africa and Latin America were closed.



Again, 4 months after GHWB took office; your point?


Many insiders say there are concrete signs that the tide has begun to turn under Mr. Tenet.

Clinton appointed Mr. Tenet and GWB showed faith in him after 911.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E02E7D61F3DF930A25754C0A9659C8B63



There were also critiques of Clinton in the article, but it clwarly shows a tred of cutbacks after the Cold War by GHWB and Clinton, which is why they both deserve some blame, as well as GWB for having 8 months where he polished his chair.

So did Clinton gut or alone gut the CIA? No, GHWB did and Clinton did nothing about it, nor did GWB. GHWB cut about as many troops from the military as Clinton, but in half the time. These necccesary cuts, but we forgot to increase port security, we being GHWB, Clinton, and GWB.

[Lucky... 0]

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We weren't attacked for any other reason than that our airport security sucked.

What do you think they could have done to prevent it?

Install then what we have now.

[Lucky... 0]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>I think revenge, as you put it, is preemptively securing our homeland against further attack.

AKA, revebge = deterrence. False on so many fronts. That's like saying prosecuting shoplifters has a significance deterrent role for future shoplifting. Altho it moght workin small terms, largely watching the store with live detectives is the most effective.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.If we just rolled over and took it up the ass then more groups would join without fear of retribution.

That's true, we can see that our throwing >4k dead kids at them and 700+ billion dollars has made them listen (rolls eyes).

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Yeah we know arabs hate us.


And we don't respect them, as per the Palastinian War for starters.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>If, in 2000, we had started racial profiling at airports the ACLU and every other activist group would've throw a fit.


That wouldn't work either, we needed to screen for weapons, not race. Isn't it like a Republican to look to racial profiling first? Ever hear of Timothy McVeigh or the Unibomber?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The 911 attackers only used box cutters to take over the plane. It's not like they snuck on vest bombs and hand guns.


And that would be taken away today.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.Arabs are still allowed on flights today.

I know, can you believe it? White is right my Arian Brother.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.The only things stopping another takeover are air marshals and a security bar on the flight deck door. Passengers these days wouldn't let it get that far anyway.

So that little security screening thing you go thru does no good? Get real.

[Lucky... 0]

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and a security bar on the flight deck door.

I can assure you it's a little bit more than just a security bar.

It's a heavy muther fucking door, I've installed them.

[Lucky... 0]

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...
Arabs are still allowed on flights today.
....

How idiotic is that ???

Best regards from the Stone Age

I know, I read that and laughed too

[Lucky... 0]

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We weren't attacked for any other reason than that our airport security sucked.

What do you think they could have done to prevent it?

Well, for one, the President and his staff can always read briefing memos put on their desks. Especially ones with titles such as;
Bin Laden determined to strike in US

The following is a transcript of the August 6, 2001, presidential daily briefing entitled Bin Laden determined to strike in US. Parts of the original document were not made public by the White House for security reasons.


Well WTF, Quade, the president in Chimp was on vacation that month, he has priorities.

[Lucky... 0]

>>>>>>>>>>>>..........but no one has gotten Bin laden yet.


Who cares? Let's watch our home, leave revenge to the Bible.


>>>>>>>>>>>Was it the police chief's fault his deciples murdered those folks?


Apples/oranges, police are held to US Const rules, foreign matters are independent of that.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>So just because we failed to prevent the attacks, Bin Laden should be allowed to go free after 7 years???


That's a living in the past mentality, does no good for future security. Do you think he has a network of terrorists to take over him goal when he's gone? Sure he does.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>September 11th happened because of millions of things that happened to allow it.

If we had airport security then like have now, would it happen?


>>>>>>>>>>>Blame shouldn't be placed. Bin Laden should be found.


And then we can relax port security, good point.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>Some communities love their fire dept., others not so much until they are needed.

The smart ones have the fire dept long before they need it, just as we would have been smart to have port security long before we needed it.

[Lucky... 0]

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...
Arabs are still allowed on flights today.
....

How idiotic is that ???

Best regards from the Stone Age

it was stated as fact. not like we should stop it. he was saying that airport securtiy would've stopped 911. my argument is that the attackers took over with box cutters. no amount of airport security would stop arabs from getting on a plane. that's rediculous.


thanks for chiming in, though.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>no amount of airport security would stop arabs from getting on a plane.


Yes, we could have stopped Arabs from boarding. That's real easy, just tha that doesn't fix anything.

[Lucky... 0]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Purely agrumentative... if the pilots pulled negative G then it wouldn't pin them to the ceiling. They, along with everyone else, would just float. It would probably flame out the engines, though.


Not if you pulled enough neg g. Shove that bastard down hard and it would stick em, then get on the pa and tell passengers what's going on and to help.

[kallend 2,148]

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...medals and accolades to military REMFs who spend their careers behind desks, ...

Share some specifics on this please (assuming you know)?

The majority of those in the armed forces have not been deployed for a variety of reasons, and while some may think it's "unfair", the units that have gone over, time and again, were designed to do so. The "REMFs" have a job to do too...I can speak fondly of many in the North Atlantic Regional Medical Command that no one in our country should be ashamed of if they did not deploy.

Local communities love their fire departments. Nations love their armies.

I'm sure REMFs have important jobs to do, but when I see ROTC cadets whose major achievement is marching mostly in step with the other cadets and they have two rows of medal ribbons on their uniforms, I have to wonder.

You think ROTC cadets have medals for something meaningful?

fuck they are not even real soldiers, otherwise you would not be in charge of them.

What makes you think I'm in charge of them? You do jump to unwarranted conclusions.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Rookie120 0]

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Install then what we have now.

TSA? Those jerkoffs couldnt protect a hot dog stand. What they claim to be security is a massive joke. What else do we have now that we didnt then?

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[Lucky... 0]

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Install then what we have now.

TSA? Those jerkoffs couldnt protect a hot dog stand. What they claim to be security is a massive joke. What else do we have now that we didnt then?

Hey, they fond gun and other stuff. I agree that it is a joke, but getting better. We just had nothing. Also it was the American, "just comply and wait for the cops to get there" idiocy that we subscribed to for so long.

[airdvr 210]

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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Purely agrumentative... if the pilots pulled negative G then it wouldn't pin them to the ceiling. They, along with everyone else, would just float. It would probably flame out the engines, though.


Not if you pulled enough neg g. Shove that bastard down hard and it would stick em, then get on the pa and tell passengers what's going on and to help.

10 posts in a row? My, you do like to see yourself in print.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[Amazon 7]

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Blame shouldn't be placed. Bin Laden should be found.

Well said Grimmie.


We have failed as a nation to find Bin Laden.. and to bury him forever in a cell so he can be seen to be a pathetic waste of human life.

Killing him does not help us.. that only allows him to achieve martyrdom in the eyes of his followers.

[Lucky... 0]

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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Purely agrumentative... if the pilots pulled negative G then it wouldn't pin them to the ceiling. They, along with everyone else, would just float. It would probably flame out the engines, though.


Not if you pulled enough neg g. Shove that bastard down hard and it would stick em, then get on the pa and tell passengers what's going on and to help.

10 posts in a row? My, you do like to see yourself in print.

No substance in your post? Why how typical, at least you can say you posted in the thread, even if you don't understand anything in it.

[FallingOsh 0]

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AKA, revebge = deterrence. False on so many fronts. That's like saying prosecuting shoplifters has a significance deterrent role for future shoplifting. Altho it moght workin small terms, largely watching the store with live detectives is the most effective.

The threat of prosecution keeps every store in the country from being cleaned out. Of course having a a guard in the store is good. What happens if the guard catches them since prosecution is just revenge?

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That's true, we can see that our throwing >4k dead kids at them and 700+ billion dollars has made them listen (rolls eyes).

Roll your eyes all you want. We haven't been attacked since then.
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That wouldn't work either, we needed to screen for weapons, not race. Isn't it like a Republican to look to racial profiling first? Ever hear of Timothy McVeigh or the Unibomber?

You guys only read what you want to read. That was exactly my point. We would never screen for race. That means the attackers would still be allowed on the plane even if the TSA was in place back then. The only difference between then and now is that their box cutter would be taken away.

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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The 911 attackers only used box cutters to take over the plane. It's not like they snuck on vest bombs and hand guns.


And that would be taken away today.

How much of roll do you think those little ass box cutters played? Personally I think the planes would've been taken over without any weapon.

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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.Arabs are still allowed on flights today.

I know, can you believe it? White is right my Arian Brother.

Again, you jump to a rediculous conclusion for the chance to take a cheap shot. My point, for the third time, is that TSA screening would not stop the attackers from getting on the plane. Their box cutters wouldn't make it, but don't you think they would've figured something else out?

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So that little security screening thing you go thru does no good? Get real.

Sure it does. Would it stop someone from taking over a plane? Highly doubt it. The flight deck doors, air marshals, and passengers would make it damn hard.

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Stay positive and love your life.

[airdvr 210]

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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Purely agrumentative... if the pilots pulled negative G then it wouldn't pin them to the ceiling. They, along with everyone else, would just float. It would probably flame out the engines, though.


Not if you pulled enough neg g. Shove that bastard down hard and it would stick em, then get on the pa and tell passengers what's going on and to help.

10 posts in a row? My, you do like to see yourself in print.

No substance in your post? Why how typical, at least you can say you posted in the thread, even if you don't understand anything in it.

There's a difference between substance and oral diarrhea.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[shropshire 0]

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Interestingly, you hadn't been attacked before so with that logic, you must have been doing something right before. umm.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[airdvr 210]

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Interestingly, you hadn't been attacked before so with that logic, you must have been doing something right before. umm.

We had been attacked before...you know that. We'd been at war with Bin Laden since Somalia.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[Amazon 7]

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TSA? Those jerkoffs couldnt protect a hot dog stand. What they claim to be security is a massive joke. What else do we have now that we didnt then?

They just need to give the contract to El Al Security.. Fire all the fucknuggets that were hired by the government from the ranks of those who failed on 9/11