birdlike 0 #101 September 6, 2008 How can anyone answer "The Chicago gun ban is working great" in light of the incontrovertible FACT that there are gun-related murders there, and guns are acquired on the street there and used within the city? That'd be like trying to leap to the moon, coming back down to earth after getting 15 inches up, and calling your leap to the moon a success. Spirits fly on dangerous missions Imaginations on fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yarpos 4 #102 September 6, 2008 what is being argued/discussed exactly? does anyone really think there is a magic answer to this? Personally I think the US is so far gone regarding gun ownership you just have to live with it now. In my country the have tried a multi layered approach (a bit like good computer security) you need to have no criminal, psych history, reference from two people that you are a rational person, must be a member of a club, must complete a set number of competitions and practices per year. It forces engagement with others and stops camouflage wearing loonies sitting at home alone dribbling and stroking their guns from not being visible till they go batshit (postal? in the US?). Does it work? up to a point....all the legal gun owners are really well controlled ....but criminals still shoot each other and others. Overall gun ownership is down due to a confiscation / buyback program....but again not many criminals lined up to hand over there firearms to the police. The politicians and the bleeding hearts feel safer , in reality we have disarmed the law abiding in favour of criminals and the stats show it. Luckily we live (in relative terms) in a fairly safe society. If we had a Chicago like culture I would be one of the few average people equipped (illegally, as we have no legal carry for civilans) to defend myself. Back to the US, frankly I think your are dreaming or pissing into the wind if you think you can manage what has been created. The genie is well out of the bottle.regards, Steve the older I get...the better I was Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
birdlike 0 #103 September 6, 2008 Quote Holy crap that's a lot of shootings! I would be pissed if I lived among that and I was not allowed to own a firearm for self defense. I would be very interested to hear what Obama has to say about this. What the fuck would he care? He gets Secret Service protection. Spirits fly on dangerous missions Imaginations on fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
birdlike 0 #104 September 6, 2008 Quote what is being argued/discussed excatly? does anyone really think there is a magic answer to this. Personally I think the US is so far gone regarding gun ownership you just have to live with it now. In my country the have tried a multi layered approach (a bit like good compter security) you need to have no criminal, psych history, reference from two people that you are a rational person, must be a member of a club, must complete a set number of competitions and practices per year. It forces engagement with others and stops camouflage wearing loonies sitting at home alone stroking their guns from not being visible till the go batshit. Does it work? up to a point....all the legal gun owners are really well controlled ....but criminals still shoot each other and others. Um, then your answer should be, "No, it doesn't work." Quote Overall gun ownership is down due to a confiscation / buyback program....but again not many criminals lined up to hand over there firearms to the police. See above. Quote The politicians and the bleeding hearts feel safer , in reality we have disarmed the law abiding in favour of criminals and the stats show it. Once again, repeat after me: "NO, it doesn't work."Spirits fly on dangerous missions Imaginations on fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
birdlike 0 #105 September 6, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Holy crap that's a lot of shootings! I would be pissed if I lived among that and I was not allowed to own a firearm for self defense. I would be very interested to hear what Obama has to say about this. Even MORE interesting will be seeing what kallend has to say about this Gang war, battling over turf. With guns that -- if we were to believe gun-banners -- they shouldn't be able to be getting, because no one gets a gun legally in Chicago, and the public is kept soooo much safer because of it! That fact is strangely absent from your reply.Spirits fly on dangerous missions Imaginations on fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yarpos 4 #106 September 6, 2008 no I really cant say that. all I can say is that criminal related violence remains on a steady trend. the incident that triggered it all off was the Port Arthur massacre , in which 30+ people were killed by a deranged guy somebody thought it was OK to sell milspec auto rilfles to. If we dont have more of those I guess its a success of a kind and just a pain in the arse for us law abiding gun owners. I have noticed a more educated stance by press and the local politicians in my State. When the last criminal incident happened the bleeding hearts came out demanding tighter gun controls. The response was "the weapon was unlicensed in the hands of a known crminal, what would changing the law do?"regards, Steve the older I get...the better I was Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
birdlike 0 #107 September 6, 2008 Quote Law abiding, sane people should be allowed to own guns. I believe that the law needs to be strengthened to make it much more difficult for criminals and the deranged to get guns. The V. Tech massacre (among others) shows that existing checks don't work. The VA Tech massacre certainly also showed that "Gun-Free Zones" don't work; and underscored the good that could have been accomplished if one of those classrooms held a person carrying a legal firearm carried concealed. No one is saying he/she would be a Dirty Harry, roaming the halls looking to find and shoot Cho. But he could remain in the classroom like so many did (remember that older professor who sacrificed himself trying to hold the door closed?) and when Cho came in, he could be hiding behind the door as he entered, and POP him just as he comes in. Massacre over. As opposed to the same group of people is huddled in that classroom without a gun, and they are just waiting to be slaughtered. There is no respect-worthy reason for anyone to oppose this anymore. We have TRIED it the "gun-free" way, and it has been FAILURE AFTER FAILURE AFTER FAILURE. Ted Nugent got on the television after VA Tech and said so, in so many words, and he was 100% correct in everything he said... and then he was ignored. Spirits fly on dangerous missions Imaginations on fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
birdlike 0 #108 September 6, 2008 Quoteno I really cant say that. all I can say is that criminal related violence remains on a steady trend. the incident that triggered it all off was the Port Arthur massacre , in which 30+ people were killed by a deranged guy somebody that it was OK to sell milspec auto rilfles to. If we dont have more of those I guess its a success of a kind and just a pain in the arse for us law abiding gun owners. That is, until the next one. The fact is, if your criminals and gangs are getting guns, as you say, then the only thing keeping them from doing a Port Arthur is the simple fact that it's not their desire to do so. QuoteI have noticed a more educated stance by press and the local politicians in my State. When the last criminal incident happened the bleeding hearts came out demanding tighter gun controls. The response was "the weapon was unlicensed in the hands of a known crminal, what would changing the law do?" Our press, amazingly, is not that enlightened yet.Spirits fly on dangerous missions Imaginations on fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yarpos 4 #109 September 6, 2008 until the next one? the odds are greatly reduced but anything is possible I guess. The +ve thing is that an attempt has been made to limit the liklehood substantially. I worry less about the criminal element as they have different motivations, and to a large extent plug one another which is a benefit to our society and the gene pool.regards, Steve the older I get...the better I was Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
birdlike 0 #110 September 6, 2008 QuoteQuote So, you are advocating government access to your medical records? Let me ask you this - do you HONESTLY believe that the system in place right now is the best that can possibly be implemented to prevent inappropriate people from easily obtaining guns? Can YOU not think of a single way in which it could be improved? It sounds clearly as though YOUR way to improve it would be to give the government access to people's private mental health records. And yet, you won't just own up and SAY that. Instead you answer questions with bullshit evasive questions! Plus, even if we do go with your plan of giving the mental health records to the government, and even if they do manage to not lose them on laptops that get stolen or databases that get hacked, your plan will not stop those people who appear normal and didn't have a disqualifying mental health record before the get their guns. You might stop a guy who has gone crazy before trying to buy a gun, but not the guy who goes crazy AFTERWARD. QuoteAnd while you're thinking about that, remember that the USA has the highest rate of gun homicides of any first world nation. You always qualify that with "first world," which I guess serves two purposes; (1) it helps you eliminate the ones that are not first-world, that have more gun homicides, in order to make the U.S. look as bad as you can; (2) it lets us know how very much you are concerned for the well-being of those third-worlders whom you casually write off (presumably as un-helpable by gun control schemes because they're such savages).Spirits fly on dangerous missions Imaginations on fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yarpos 4 #111 September 6, 2008 you really think the US should be measuring itself against 3rd world countries?regards, Steve the older I get...the better I was Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #112 September 6, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Holy crap that's a lot of shootings! I would be pissed if I lived among that and I was not allowed to own a firearm for self defense. I would be very interested to hear what Obama has to say about this. Even MORE interesting will be seeing what kallend has to say about this Gang war, battling over turf. So, this being the case, more gun control would not help. After all, it is crimals shooting criminals. You know, those who are not supposed to have guns to begin with in a town that does not allow guns. Thanks There is a big difference between not allowing guns and having an effective way to prevent inappropriate people from easily obtaining guns. With a short drive from Chicago any gang banger can buy a gun because the existing laws are so weak and so poorly enforced, and careless "law abiding" gun owners have created a huge pool of black market weapons. Posting untruths again? How about telling the truth, that gang banger commits a crime in order to obtain firearms, and that crime goes unpunished. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #113 September 6, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI believe that the law needs to be strengthened to make it much more difficult for criminals and the deranged to get guns. Once again, how would you accomplish this? Better background checks would be a good place to start. Ok. But who would do the background checks and what information would be contained in the background checks? I am told by a reliable source (gun enthusiast, posts here regularly) that Texas has a very EFFECTIVE process for background checks on CCW applicants. I have no first hand knowledge of this. I'm sure it can be done if the gun lobby stops being so knee-jerk obstructive. Texas adheres to FEDERAL LAW that means background checks, you know, just like the rest of the country. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #114 September 6, 2008 I think we should cut and run from Chicago."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #115 September 6, 2008 QuoteGang war, battling over turf. But, but, but....That's not possible....They are not allowed to have guns? Wait...Are you saying criminals don't obey laws? Finally you understand! QuoteI am told by a reliable source (gun enthusiast, posts here regularly) that Texas has a very EFFECTIVE process for background checks on CCW applicants. I have no first hand knowledge of this. I'm sure it can be done if the gun lobby stops being so knee-jerk obstructive. To buy a gun it is a NATIONAL program. Carry permits are a different story, but most states that have carry rights have very close to the same qualifications. John, time after time you show you have NO idea about this topic at all. QuoteDo you HONESTLY believe that the system in place right now is the best that can possibly be implemented to prevent inappropriate people from easily obtaining guns ? Can YOU not think of a single way in which it could be improved? Are you ok with violating citizens rights to get it? QuoteAnd then there are medicals required if you want to be a pilot, or a tandem master. None of those are rights in the BoR's....Again are you ok with violating someone's civil rights to implement your plan. QuoteAs Ron likes to say, do you have PROOF of that? That never stops you from ignoring the question."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,113 #116 September 6, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI believe that the law needs to be strengthened to make it much more difficult for criminals and the deranged to get guns. Once again, how would you accomplish this? Better background checks would be a good place to start. Ok. But who would do the background checks and what information would be contained in the background checks? I am told by a reliable source (gun enthusiast, posts here regularly) that Texas has a very EFFECTIVE process for background checks on CCW applicants. I have no first hand knowledge of this. I'm sure it can be done if the gun lobby stops being so knee-jerk obstructive. Texas adheres to FEDERAL LAW that means background checks, you know, just like the rest of the country. Tell us more about FEDERAL LAW for CCW permits, Randall.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #117 September 6, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI believe that the law needs to be strengthened to make it much more difficult for criminals and the deranged to get guns. Once again, how would you accomplish this? Better background checks would be a good place to start. Ok. But who would do the background checks and what information would be contained in the background checks? I am told by a reliable source (gun enthusiast, posts here regularly) that Texas has a very EFFECTIVE process for background checks on CCW applicants. I have no first hand knowledge of this. I'm sure it can be done if the gun lobby stops being so knee-jerk obstructive. Texas adheres to FEDERAL LAW that means background checks, you know, just like the rest of the country. Tell us more about FEDERAL LAW for CCW permits, Randall. Quit trying to skew the discussion, the Texas laws follow the federal laws for background checks. tell us more about how much you know about firearms, how many years were you employed in a profession where you personally were using firearms. Tell us more about how many times you have instructed others in the safe usage of firearms, and how many times you haver served as a Range Safety Officer. How many firearms have you ever owned? What firearms are you an expert at using, maintaining, accurizing, or fixing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,113 #118 September 6, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI believe that the law needs to be strengthened to make it much more difficult for criminals and the deranged to get guns. Once again, how would you accomplish this? Better background checks would be a good place to start. Ok. But who would do the background checks and what information would be contained in the background checks? I am told by a reliable source (gun enthusiast, posts here regularly) that Texas has a very EFFECTIVE process for background checks on CCW applicants. I have no first hand knowledge of this. I'm sure it can be done if the gun lobby stops being so knee-jerk obstructive. Texas adheres to FEDERAL LAW that means background checks, you know, just like the rest of the country. Tell us more about FEDERAL LAW for CCW permits, Randall. Quit trying to skew the discussion, the Texas laws follow the federal laws for background checks. tell us more about how much you know about firearms, how many years were you employed in a profession where you personally were using firearms. Tell us more about how many times you have instructed others in the safe usage of firearms, and how many times you haver served as a Range Safety Officer. How many firearms have you ever owned? What firearms are you an expert at using, maintaining, accurizing, or fixing. Nice but futile try at distraction. Tell us about FEDERAL law for CCW permits.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #119 September 6, 2008 There are no federal laws governing CCW, the Texas laws do however use the same process that if used during FEDERAL background checks in order to purchase firearms. Now what are you going to say in order to distract, or infer that the federal laws are not adequate? Or are you going to finally admit that the laws are enough, when they are enforced. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #120 September 6, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteYou're never going to stop him from getting the gun. . As Ron likes to say, do you have PROOF of that? The 40 year war on drugs is sufficient proof, following by England, Columbine, and common sense. OK,. so you have no proof then, just guessing. Right, no guns would get into this country illegally because guns are magic, not like marijuanna (1.5 million pounds from British Columbia alone each year), or cocaine (500,000 pounds a year) and unlike people (800,000) they don't have legs. If no guns got into this country ilegally, even though we have computer controlled CNC mills and resistance fighters made do with hand tools, we won't have home made open bolt sub-machine guns because Americans are too bloody stupid. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,113 #121 September 6, 2008 Quote There are no federal laws governing CCW. Very good, Randall! Smiley face for you.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
birdlike 0 #122 September 6, 2008 Quoteyou really think the US should be measuring itself against 3rd world countries? If gun control supposedly works, why should it not work in third-world countries?Spirits fly on dangerous missions Imaginations on fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
birdlike 0 #123 September 6, 2008 QuoteI am told by a reliable source (gun enthusiast, posts here regularly) that Texas has a very EFFECTIVE process for background checks on CCW applicants. I have no first hand knowledge of this. I'm sure it can be done if the gun lobby stops being so knee-jerk obstructive. WHAT?! How can it be the "obstructive gun lobby" when people aren't even allowed to HAVE HANDGUNS in Chicago?! Before we can see if this Texas-style background check works in Chicago, maybe the obstructionist anti-gunners would have to decriminalize guns first, yah?!Spirits fly on dangerous missions Imaginations on fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,113 #124 September 6, 2008 QuoteQuoteyou really think the US should be measuring itself against 3rd world countries? If gun control supposedly works, why should it not work in third-world countries? I'm sure you have the intelligence to answer that for yourself.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #125 September 6, 2008 Quote Quote you really think the US should be measuring itself against 3rd world countries? If gun control supposedly works, why should it not work in third-world countries? Oh my. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
