jclalor 12 #1 September 5, 2008 Can you believe that the vast majority of people attending the GOP convention actually believe the earth is 6,000 years old and evolution is just a very flawed and silly theory. How could so many educated people believe this crap and ignore the overwhelming scientific evidence? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #2 September 5, 2008 Hey at least we don't sacrifice people anymore. www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,133 #3 September 5, 2008 >Can you believe that the vast majority of people attending the GOP >convention actually believe the earth is 6,000 years old and evolution is >just a very flawed and silly theory. Not so surprising. The majority of people in the US believe that, and many republicans pride themselves on not being part of the effete educated elite. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #4 September 5, 2008 Quote >Can you believe that the vast majority of people attending the GOP >convention actually believe the earth is 6,000 years old and evolution is >just a very flawed and silly theory. Not so surprising. The majority of people in the US believe that, and many republicans pride themselves on not being part of the effete educated elite. billvon, I'm surprised to hear this from you. Pollls can be influenced in a lot of different ways, specifically by the way the questions are worded. Have you ever heard of Penn & Teller's rant about this? (the whole "Fuck you, Frank Luntz! thing.) For example, if someone were to ask me, a scientist & a believer in Evolution and a 5 billion year old earth / 15 billion year old universe, if I believed that it was the result of a God's Creation, then I would answer YES. They could then interpret that I believe in that anglican Bishop's (Usher) interpretation that I believe that the Bible is a Science Textbook, and the Earth is only 6000 years old. You cannot trust polls, unless you know EXACTLY how the questions were asked, and unless you know EXACTLY where they asked the questions. I hear a lot of people from the UK & Europe who are FASCINATED that there are so many Americans who believe in extremist Fundamentalist views of Creation, whereas where they live, people who believe in a 6000 year old Earth & Literal Translations of the Bible as Scientific Knowledge are regarded as Oddities. The actual truth here in the USA is that they are regarded as oddities here, too. But the polling practices are different, here. -------------------------------------- Look, it is possible to believe in God & Creation & still believe in Evolution. It's weird, because the Catholic Church, the oldest Christian denomination, has been saying this for 40 years at least. But for some reason, we get sidetracked (in the polls and in the Press) by the Fundamentalist, anti-intellectual Extremist. Of course, that works out well for the Fundy Atheists. All they have to do is ACCEPT the Fundie, anti-Science mentality, and then prove that the Bible is wrong only because it isn't a Science Textbook. And then they can be satisfied that it is wrong on a Spiritual level as well. So the Fundie Christians and the Fundie Atheists can be self-satisfied, each in their own way. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jclalor 12 #5 September 5, 2008 Fundie Atheist will never be in a position to set policy in this country as oppose to fundie Christians. School prayer, ID and lack of sex education are just a few of their plans and all this can happen during the next administration. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #6 September 5, 2008 maybe so, maybe not. It doesn't change the fact that there are a lot of us out there who are 1) Christian and are also 2) rational regarding Science.. Why are we ignored?? Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #7 September 5, 2008 QuoteIt doesn't change the fact that there are a lot of us out there who are 1) Christian and are also 2) rational regarding Science.. Why are we ignored?? Because maybe your definition of "a lot" and others is pretty different.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jclalor 12 #8 September 5, 2008 I am not sure what you mean by being ignored, but if you mean by the right not being reflextive of the majority of Christians who do not believe in ID, I think it's because the FC'S just have more political leverage. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #9 September 5, 2008 Quote>Can you believe that the vast majority of people attending the GOP >convention actually believe the earth is 6,000 years old and evolution is >just a very flawed and silly theory. Not so surprising. The majority of people in the US believe that, and many republicans pride themselves on not being part of the effete educated elite. If you just learned from JohnDeere you would know that that book learnin stuff aint needed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #10 September 5, 2008 As well you need to run any data past your BS filter. From that data, I look around, observe, listen and agree that most Americans are that out there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #11 September 5, 2008 do you mean to say that in your experience, most Americans believe in the Creationist, six thousand year old Earth & no evolution idea? I know there are some out there that do, but just in MY personal experience, they seem to be a small minority. If there really are that many out there, I don't know where they're hiding them. unless they did the polls in East Bumfuck, Alabama during the auditions for Deliverance. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #12 September 5, 2008 It's really embarrassing that anyone is a creationist. When I was a young kid in school learning about how people way back in the day believed the Earth was flat despite the evidence, I wondered what our "flat Earth" controversy would be. I keep moving more towards the grey area when it comes to voting/political beliefs. One single thing generally isn't enough to sway my vote (otherwise, I'd have no one to vote for!) It would, however, be very very very difficult for me to vote for a creationist. I don't care what someone thinks religiously, but having such a high level of ignorance and stubborness to deny overwhelming evidence...well, just not sure I can ever give someone like that any "power."There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maadmax 0 #13 September 5, 2008 QuoteIt's really embarrassing that anyone is a creationist. When I was a young kid in school learning about how people way back in the day believed the Earth was flat despite the evidence, I wondered what our "flat Earth" controversy would be. I keep moving more towards the grey area when it comes to voting/political beliefs. One single thing generally isn't enough to sway my vote (otherwise, I'd have no one to vote for!) It would, however, be very very very difficult for me to vote for a creationist. I don't care what someone thinks religiously, but having such a high level of ignorance and stubborness to deny overwhelming evidence...well, just not sure I can ever give someone like that any "power.*** Well I hate to say this but I guess our votes will just cancel each other out. I am embarrassed and perplexed by someone who would think that random chance explains how all of that hydrogen and helium along with a little nitrogen formed after the big bang produced the universe around us and the intelligent life in it. How do you get self aware life from inorganic atoms. Is that trait inherent in their subatomic structure only to be expressed with just the right random combinations fueled by chance interactions. For the record I am a creationist that believes the universe is 13.75 billion years old and the earth was fromed 4.5 billion years ago. _________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,133 #14 September 5, 2008 > I am embarrassed and perplexed by someone who would think that random >chance explains how all of that hydrogen and helium along with a little nitrogen >formed after the big bang produced the universe around us and the intelligent life >in it. It didn't. You do understand how carbon and iron form, right? And how heavier elements like iodine form? And how basic compounds like methane, ethane, amino acids and hydrocarbons can be formed in the lab with no divine input whatsoever, right? > How do you get self aware life from inorganic atoms. You don't, quite literally. We formed from organic compounds, not inorganic atoms. >Is that trait inherent in their subatomic structure only to be expressed with >just the right random combinations fueled by chance interactions. Look at a snowflake or a quartz crystal sometime and ask yourself the same question. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,133 #15 September 5, 2008 >billvon, I'm surprised to hear this from you. Newsweek Mar 07: Views about the origin and development of human beings: God played no role 13% God guided process 30% God created in present form 48% USA Today Jun 2007: Do you believe in: Creationism, that is, the idea that God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years: Definitely true 39% Probably true 27% Probably false 16% Definitely false 15% CBS Nov 2004: Did God create humans in their present form? 55% yes "Don't cares" were ignored. Creationist beliefs inversely track levels of education in every poll that made that distinction. >You cannot trust polls Perhaps not, but as your very system of government is based on what is basically a poll, we can't really disregard them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SpeedRacer 1 #16 September 5, 2008 still, there is such a thing as 1) sampling error and 2) people misunderstanding a question or re-interpreting it in a different way. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,133 #17 September 5, 2008 >still, there is such a thing as 1) sampling error and 2) people misunderstanding >a question or re-interpreting it in a different way. Perhaps. But if that were the case, I would expect in at least a few polls for people to make the opposite error and indicate that fewer than 50% believed in theistic creation. I haven't seen one like that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SpeedRacer 1 #18 September 5, 2008 regarding the original post: there are some who not only believe that Evolution is incorrect, they believe it is actually sinful to believe in it. I wonder if a Pres. candidate in the GOP would have problems getting elected if he publicly stated that he did believe in evolution. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jclalor 12 #19 September 6, 2008 No GOP contender would ever state they did not believe in creationism, this would be the kiss of death, hell for that matter no democrat would either. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites maadmax 0 #20 September 6, 2008 --It didn't. You do understand how carbon and iron form, right? And how heavier elements like iodine form? And how basic compounds like methane, ethane, amino acids and hydrocarbons can be formed in the lab with no divine input whatsoever, right?*** Probably the same amount of " lack of input" a bowling ball has once it is released and rolls down a lane toward the pins --You don't, quite literally. We formed from organic compounds, not inorganic atoms.***OK, so you describe hydrogen and helium after it has cooked in a star furnace and gone supernova. My point is that the potential for self aware life was present in the subatomic plasma after the big band as a matter of design, not random chance. Both theoretical extrapolations require a measure of faith to incorporate them into ones view of reality. Faith in God provides real time & eternal benefits, faith in random chance avails nothing. --Look at a snowflake or a quartz crystal sometime and ask yourself the same question.***True, but I see a mega-fold difference between crystallography and self aware life. ______________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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billvon 3,133 #14 September 5, 2008 > I am embarrassed and perplexed by someone who would think that random >chance explains how all of that hydrogen and helium along with a little nitrogen >formed after the big bang produced the universe around us and the intelligent life >in it. It didn't. You do understand how carbon and iron form, right? And how heavier elements like iodine form? And how basic compounds like methane, ethane, amino acids and hydrocarbons can be formed in the lab with no divine input whatsoever, right? > How do you get self aware life from inorganic atoms. You don't, quite literally. We formed from organic compounds, not inorganic atoms. >Is that trait inherent in their subatomic structure only to be expressed with >just the right random combinations fueled by chance interactions. Look at a snowflake or a quartz crystal sometime and ask yourself the same question. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,133 #15 September 5, 2008 >billvon, I'm surprised to hear this from you. Newsweek Mar 07: Views about the origin and development of human beings: God played no role 13% God guided process 30% God created in present form 48% USA Today Jun 2007: Do you believe in: Creationism, that is, the idea that God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years: Definitely true 39% Probably true 27% Probably false 16% Definitely false 15% CBS Nov 2004: Did God create humans in their present form? 55% yes "Don't cares" were ignored. Creationist beliefs inversely track levels of education in every poll that made that distinction. >You cannot trust polls Perhaps not, but as your very system of government is based on what is basically a poll, we can't really disregard them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #16 September 5, 2008 still, there is such a thing as 1) sampling error and 2) people misunderstanding a question or re-interpreting it in a different way. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,133 #17 September 5, 2008 >still, there is such a thing as 1) sampling error and 2) people misunderstanding >a question or re-interpreting it in a different way. Perhaps. But if that were the case, I would expect in at least a few polls for people to make the opposite error and indicate that fewer than 50% believed in theistic creation. I haven't seen one like that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #18 September 5, 2008 regarding the original post: there are some who not only believe that Evolution is incorrect, they believe it is actually sinful to believe in it. I wonder if a Pres. candidate in the GOP would have problems getting elected if he publicly stated that he did believe in evolution. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jclalor 12 #19 September 6, 2008 No GOP contender would ever state they did not believe in creationism, this would be the kiss of death, hell for that matter no democrat would either. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maadmax 0 #20 September 6, 2008 --It didn't. You do understand how carbon and iron form, right? And how heavier elements like iodine form? And how basic compounds like methane, ethane, amino acids and hydrocarbons can be formed in the lab with no divine input whatsoever, right?*** Probably the same amount of " lack of input" a bowling ball has once it is released and rolls down a lane toward the pins --You don't, quite literally. We formed from organic compounds, not inorganic atoms.***OK, so you describe hydrogen and helium after it has cooked in a star furnace and gone supernova. My point is that the potential for self aware life was present in the subatomic plasma after the big band as a matter of design, not random chance. Both theoretical extrapolations require a measure of faith to incorporate them into ones view of reality. Faith in God provides real time & eternal benefits, faith in random chance avails nothing. --Look at a snowflake or a quartz crystal sometime and ask yourself the same question.***True, but I see a mega-fold difference between crystallography and self aware life. ______________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
