I am an arrogant elitist

[rushmc 23]

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>What? I haven't skydived in 3.5 years, you throw a hypothetical
>question at me, I answer facetiously, and suddenly I'm an arrogant
>elitist?

Don't fret about it; we all are. All of us have our areas of expertise. If we weren't elitists about the things we did very well, we'd be fools to waste our talents. (And if we weren't arrogant when we needed to be, we'd be cowards.)

>And damn it I'm still upset at you for not delivery that Skydiver
>Blonde like you promised years ago.

Sorry! No more Lang I'm afraid, but I could get you some pretty good Belgians and Wits . . .

You are correct for the most part but, I think the terms being discussed here are not being looked at from the right perspective.

I feel someone is being elitist and arrogant when they make an agrument that impunes or makes fun of someone. They imply someone has less education or inteligance than them because they do not agree with them. They think the other is stupid because they can not understant how anybody can be so stupid so as not to agree. (with them)

Example, your treatment of many here to the global warming topic. You are correct in you assumptions and anybody that does not agree with you is treated as stupid. In this light do you think the terms are correct?

Well said. I agree with everything except for the global warming part. I'm simply not knowledgable enough on the subject to participate in those discussions so I wouldn't know how billvon treats people who disagree with him.

thanks

I have been trying to make my posts more clear. Putting my thoughts on a screen by typing is not easy for me

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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Yeah I have had a difficult time with this one as well but you came here and explained it hell of a lot better than me.

Although Billvon is correct in saying we are all elitists to some degree, much the same way we are all racist to some degree, I do not agree with his very broad interpretation of the word.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[rushmc 23]

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Yeah I have had a difficult time with this one as well but you came here and explained it hell of a lot better than me.

Although Billvon is correct in saying we are all elitists to some degree, much the same way we are all racist to some degree, I do not agree with his very broad interpretation of the word.

Exactly
I do not mind someone disagreeing with me or thinking I am just plain wrong.

But thinking and then expressing or insunuating that because I dont agree with I am stupid or uneducated is elitist, arrogant and condesending Along with talking down to someone........

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[livendive 8]

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I think people who don't understand basic chemistry and physics are less than intelligent educated; that doesn't mean they agree or disagree with me.

Hopefully that's what you meant to say.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[livendive 8]

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I do not mind someone disagreeing with me or thinking I am just plain wrong.

But thinking and then expressing or insunuating that because I dont agree with I am stupid or uneducated is elitist, arrogant and condesending Along with talking down to someone........

I've never mocked your arguments because they don't agree with mine. I have mocked some that were not based in logic or that were about as far from cogent as one can get, but that doesn't mean I think you're stupid. Also, everyone here is "uneducated" with regard to some issues, including you and me. I try to stay out of the arguments on my weaker topics, but don't always succeed.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[rushmc 23]

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I do not mind someone disagreeing with me or thinking I am just plain wrong.

But thinking and then expressing or insunuating that because I dont agree with I am stupid or uneducated is elitist, arrogant and condesending Along with talking down to someone........

I've never mocked your arguments because they don't agree with mine. I have mocked some that were not based in logic or that were about as far from cogent as one can get, but that doesn't mean I think you're stupid. Also, everyone here is "uneducated" with regard to some issues, including you and me. I try to stay out of the arguments on my weaker topics, but don't always succeed.

Blues,
Dave

Your are correct for the most part. I do not think you (or most on this site for that matter) do what I am speaking to here. Some do it regularly.

But why mock anything? (and I know I do it from time to time and I try not to) All it does is show disrespect or and elitist attitude.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[livendive 8]

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But why mock anything? (and I know I do it from time to time and I try not to)

Mostly because it's fun. Let's be honest here. Few, if any, come to Speaker's Corner to learn or teach, and I doubt many of us have any illusions about the odds of convincing anyone of anything here. We mostly come here either to argue or to laugh at other's arguments, and that's just the way it is.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[rushmc 23]

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But why mock anything? (and I know I do it from time to time and I try not to)

Mostly because it's fun. Let's be honest here. Few, if any, come to Speaker's Corner to learn or teach, and I doubt many of us have any illusions about the odds of convincing anyone of anything here. We mostly come here either to argue or to laugh at other's arguments, and that's just the way it is.

Blues,
Dave

True, but choose to do it respectfully (to those who do the same)

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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But why mock anything? (and I know I do it from time to time and I try not to)

Mostly because it's fun. Let's be honest here. Few, if any, come to Speaker's Corner to learn or teach, and I doubt many of us have any illusions about the odds of convincing anyone of anything here. We mostly come here either to argue or to laugh at other's arguments, and that's just the way it is.

Blues,
Dave

Actually I've lurked this forum for a long time in an effort to learn. It's nice to see both sides of things which allows me to make up my own mind. Also I try to keep an open mind and allow myself to be convinced if someone's argument is good enough. Likely I wouldn't ever admit it though because it's usually a slow process requiring real world confirmation rather than a sudden epiphany based on a person's writings over the internet.

So far I can attribute one issue I flip flopped on thanks to speakers corner....the death penalty.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[billvon 3,120]

> I do not agree with his very broad interpretation of the word.

I would be willing to go with a more narrow interpretation as well, but that would not sit well in today's political climate, where anyone who is educated or who wishes to hold a high office is elitist.

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Aha! I knew it! I figured this thread had something to do with politics and likely accusations Obama and the dems are elitist. I freakin knew it. I'm so L337.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[billvon 3,120]

> likely accusations Obama and the dems are elitist.

Didn't say anything about Obama and the democrats. Some people think that McCain is elitist because he can't remember how many homes he owns, and thinks that it would take an income of five million a year to make you rich.

But it is interesting that you immediately associated "Obama" with comments about how educated people are considered elitist.

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Actually I associated Obama with you. Considering Obama and the dems have been getting slammed with accusations of being elitists, it wasn't a large step to make. So am I wrong or not? If I am then what's the truth?

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[livendive 8]

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Let's be honest here. Few, if any, come to Speaker's Corner to learn or teach, and I doubt many of us have any illusions about the odds of convincing anyone of anything here. We mostly come here either to argue or to laugh at other's arguments, and that's just the way it is.

Actually I've lurked this forum for a long time in an effort to learn. It's nice to see both sides of things which allows me to make up my own mind. Also I try to keep an open mind and allow myself to be convinced if someone's argument is good enough. Likely I wouldn't ever admit it though because it's usually a slow process requiring real world confirmation rather than a sudden epiphany based on a person's writings over the internet.

So far I can attribute one issue I flip flopped on thanks to speakers corner....the death penalty.

Yeah, I've had my opinion altered on occasion here too, but that's the exception, not the rule.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[billvon 3,120]

>Actually I associated Obama with you.

Why thank you! I think being associated with either Obama or McCain would be a compliment.

>Considering Obama and the dems have been getting slammed with accusations
>of being elitists, it wasn't a large step to make. So am I wrong or not? If I am
>then what's the truth?

What was the impetus? The thread on dropzone.com where you and Lawrocket were talking about arrogance and elitism, and my disagreement with your definitions. It has been applied most often to Obama, and to a lesser degree to McCain.

Yes, they are both arrogant to think they could actually lead the USA. Yes, they are both elitist; they exist at the very upper reaches of society and consider their judgment to be better than most other people's. That's sort of the definition of what you have to think to be president.

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To be fair, I don't believe I have ever called Obama, McCain, or either of their parties elitists.Correct me if I'm wrong. In fact I believe I'm actually on record defending Obama's clinging statement which he was criticized for.

I can't speak for lawrocket but I think you singled me out incorrectly.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[billvon 3,120]

>To be fair, I don't believe I have ever called Obama, McCain, or either of their parties elitists.

Fair enough - neither have I.

>I can't speak for lawrocket but I think you singled me out incorrectly.

I didn't claim that you called Obama or McCain an elitist.

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I think it's silly we're arguing the definition of a word when we have so many tools at our very fingertips.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/elitist

Main Entry: elit·ism
Function: noun
Date: 1947
1: leadership or rule by an elite
2: the selectivity of the elite; especially : snobbery
3: consciousness of being or belonging to an elite
— elit·ist noun or adjective


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/elitist

Main Entry: snob
Function: noun
Etymology: origin unknown
Date: 1781
1British : cobbler
2: one who blatantly imitates, fawningly admires, or vulgarly seeks association with those regarded as social superiors
3 a: one who tends to rebuff, avoid, or ignore those regarded as inferior b: one who has an offensive air of superiority in matters of knowledge or taste

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[billvon 3,120]

OK, well, I definitely fit the first part of that definition. I'm in a position at work where our small group of people tells a larger group what to do.

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So it can be said we were both wrong?

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[billvon 3,120]

>So it can be said we were both wrong?

Sorry, I'm losing track of what we're right or wrong about.

By many definitions (including yours) I am indeed an elitist, and I think most people are to some degree. Am I a snob? I don't think I am, but I am sure some people think so.

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Well this whole thing started with a disagreement over the definition of a word. In the end we were both right. We just happen to use the word differently.

Do you get accused of being an elitist a lot or something? You seem pretty passionate about it.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[billvon 3,120]

>Do you get accused of being an elitist a lot or something?

Not usually. Like I said, the previous thread about elitism is what got me thinking about it.

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Well I'm not an elitist by either definition. Unfortunately, I'm more of an underachiever.

I'll admit I have been elitist, by both definitions, in the past but as I got older I decided it was an unbecoming personal trait so when I recognize the behaviour within myself, I put a stop to it. I credit my religion for bringing that out of me.
edite to add: I thought I should clarify unbecoming being my definition.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[lawrocket 3]

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The thread on dropzone.com where you and Lawrocket were talking about arrogance and elitism, and my disagreement with your definitions.

Okay. So how do you find error with my definitions?

Here was my first take:

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I think put most simply, an "elitist" is one who thinks that he or she has the authority or capacity to decide who is superior or inferior. In doing so, they expect others to conform to their personal ideals. Rather than respect the difference of others, they disrespect those who are different from them.

This means that I may be "elitist" because I expect others to be like me and look our for myself and my responsibilities. I get that. And I see that. I expect, to some extent, that people will conform to my personal ideals, such as honesty.

I also added:

"claims to know and understand what others do not (this usually comes from the fringes or the right or left). "I don't think you understand" (non-elitist) it is "You don't understand" (elitist)"

It's possible that a person does not understand. But it is also possible a person understands completely and disagrees.

I also added:
"- claims to know the hearts and minds of those with whom they disagree and challenges their motivations through supposition, stating it as fact. "

There is nothing wrong with opinions. "I think she's a bitch" that while brushing on "elitism" doesn't indicate the belief that the "opinion" is "objective fact." "She's a bitch" is a statement of fact. "I think so, so everybody else should, too." That's "elitist."

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claims that those who disagree are stupid, non-mainstream (that's the biggest one, lately), uneducated, etc,

We hear this CONSTANTLY. IT IS CONSTANT. We hear it from the right (he's a lazy commie) and from the left (he's intolerant). Either way, it's the marginalization of someone whose beliefs differ from you or me. The belief that "I'm right. I'm not wrong." And, as stated, this applies to subjective thoughts.

"Obama isn't qualified to be president." That's elitist. "Lawrocket's wife isn't qualified to be president." That's a FACT - she's not 35 years old yet.

Therein is the difference between "elitism" and cold-hard fact. So the guy doesn't follow the landing pattern - objectively proveable.

It is making a personal "subjective opinion" into an "objective fact" and expecting others to share the belief in that to be "elitist."

"THis is best for everyone." Rarely is ANYTHING best for everyone. That's elitist.

"2 plus 2 does not equal 7." That's NOT elitist. (exception - perhaps there is a form of mathematics where is does.)

My wife is hotter than your wife.