Lucky... 0 #26 August 30, 2008 Don't you think neo-conservative policies have driven welfare out of these areas, hence they became worse? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #27 August 30, 2008 QuoteQuoteSocialist does not equal liberal. Not in literal terms, but the reality is otherwise. The liberal political mindset now consistently seeks to funnel as much as possible through government oversight, regardless of mandate. The argument could be made that "true" communism is in fact very conservative. However, as you point out it's a matter of perspective. QuoteQuoteAdam Smith's being the "founder" of free market economics has been possible, in fact, only from limiting government intervention. Adam Smith's work is liberal economic theory. I don't dispute that, I said that liberal economic theory does not equate to liberal political theory. QuoteHe proposed market economics as the economic policy to accomplish that. Smith proposed *limited* intervention not *no* intervention. That's what I said... >>>>>>>>>>>>>The liberal political mindset now consistently seeks to funnel as much as possible through government oversight, regardless of mandate. Even if true, as opposed to the neo-con agenda to funnel as much thru legitimate governmental channels under teh guise of need. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.The argument could be made that "true" communism is in fact very conservative. However, as you point out it's a matter of perspective. And American conservatism shares some attributes with Communism. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I don't dispute that, I said that liberal economic theory does not equate to liberal political theory. Sure it does, liberation politically is akin to liberation fiscally, esp in a nation that is based upon Capitalism and social svs are hard to come by. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #28 August 30, 2008 Those idiot libs that got rid of slavery didn't think for a second about all those poor farmers they destroyed. Typical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #29 August 30, 2008 Quote Quote As discussed in other threads, liberalism freed the slaves, fought the Britts and gave Rosa Parks the right to sit on the bus. Concur strongly. Quote Liberalism made/makes this country great, unless you like Republican Naziism. While I have no doubt that there exist among the 90M or so Republicans (or conservatives) in the US a few who do espouse Nazi ideas/neo-Aryan/anti-government ideas, the overwhelmingly vast majority don't. VR/Marg Naziism = metaphore. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #30 August 30, 2008 Quote>I don't need to bash liberalism, their track record speaks volumes. Yeah. Those idiot libs that got rid of slavery didn't think for a second about all those poor farmers they destroyed. Typical. And the Bill of Rights! I suppose the liberals that came up with that nonsense thought everyone would just join hands and sing KumBayAh. Excuse me....who wrote the Emancipation Proclamation (both executive orders)? Bill, you can compare old style democrats (pre-President Johnson) all you want (I'll agree with you in many areas in that regard). The fact is that with the new deal war of poverty liberalism that started in the 60s has not yielded the results claimed...pick a social program. Look at Detroit, New Orleans, Los Angeles, Southwest Atlanta, Washington, DC...So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #31 August 30, 2008 QuoteSure it does, liberation politically is akin to liberation fiscally, esp in a nation that is based upon Capitalism and social svs are hard to come by. Do you even know what this country spends its money on? The single biggest chunk of spending is on entitlement programs, not including Social Security.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #32 August 30, 2008 Quote Yea, that trickle down thing is great....worked so well for Hoover and Reagan, not to mention Bush. Your right... private investment, corporations, and small business are useless. No of these things provide jobs in the country."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
birdlike 0 #33 August 31, 2008 Quote I don't need to bash liberalism, their track record speaks volumes. Social programs cracking under the weight of bureaucracy in Europe, Canada and America's largest cities. Costs for education and healthcare choked because of well-meaning, but misguided liberal policies that hinder development and real creative thinking, and choice. Given that, I simply challenge the ideas and hope the light begins to shine in... ...it will eventually. You're correct about all of that. The OP is incorrect, because he's seizing on the NAME we use out of convenience. True, the people called "liberals" today are not the "CLASSIC liberals" of yesteryear who were advocates of individual liberty, not socialism. So, OP, forgive us for using a convenient moniker that has worked its way into the modern lexicon. What would you have us substitute?Spirits fly on dangerous missions Imaginations on fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
birdlike 0 #34 August 31, 2008 Quote It doesn't matter what "type" of liberalism you're into...the basic premise is that "government should take care of you because you're not capable of doing it yourself". We've had 50+ years of government handouts and what has it gotten us? Take a drive into any innercity neighborhood near you and take a good look around. That is, if you have the balls to go. I'll bet most people on this board haven't been near those areas in a long time, if ever. Go see what your dollars have been spent on...see the effects of "government taking care of it's citizens". Don't you know, the liberals' answer is that the conservatives stood in the way of all the good the liberals would have accomplished if given a free hand! Every failure of the liberals to use big government to solve all of the citizens' problems and take care of them from cradle to grave is laid at the feet of anyone who wouldn't let the liberals with their genius ideas take the reins and get everything fixed and humming along in harmony and perfection. In fact, it's a perfect parallel for gun control! Gun control fails to control crime and criminals; but it's only because we've stood in the way of the liberals instituting strong enough gun control! Spirits fly on dangerous missions Imaginations on fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
birdlike 0 #35 August 31, 2008 Quote Yes. In addition to pointing out that radical Islamists are the antithesis of liberalism, the track record of liberalism has afforded the world individual rights, rule of law (versus Divine right of Kings), freedom of speech, freedom of reading material, market economics, the concept of private property, child labor laws, decrease in poverty rates (compare poverty rates of the 1800s in the US when estimates range from 50-75%+ of nation living in poverty to the last 50 years when it varies ~8-12%; decrease in poverty correlates with decrease in crime & increase in GDP), veterans benefits (e.g., Roosevelt’s original GI Bill) … & the weekend. Those are all products of liberalism. VR/Marg Yes, those are all the products of CLASSICAL LIBERALISM. NOT modern, big-government, Democrat party liberalism. There is really no point to calling them liberals anymore, which is why I typically use the term "leftist," not "liberal." The difference between liberals and today's leftists is stark, the gulf between them enormous.Spirits fly on dangerous missions Imaginations on fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #36 August 31, 2008 QuoteQuoteSure it does, liberation politically is akin to liberation fiscally, esp in a nation that is based upon Capitalism and social svs are hard to come by. Do you even know what this country spends its money on? The single biggest chunk of spending is on entitlement programs, not including Social Security. As compared to other countries, we have far fewer social svs. Love the term, "entitlement programs," bte you don't use if for military contractors who receive the same. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #37 August 31, 2008 QuoteQuote Yea, that trickle down thing is great....worked so well for Hoover and Reagan, not to mention Bush. Your right... private investment, corporations, and small business are useless. No of these things provide jobs in the country. Yep, all or nothing. Could balance and reasonable spending be in order? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #38 August 31, 2008 Quote Quote It doesn't matter what "type" of liberalism you're into...the basic premise is that "government should take care of you because you're not capable of doing it yourself". We've had 50+ years of government handouts and what has it gotten us? Take a drive into any innercity neighborhood near you and take a good look around. That is, if you have the balls to go. I'll bet most people on this board haven't been near those areas in a long time, if ever. Go see what your dollars have been spent on...see the effects of "government taking care of it's citizens". Don't you know, the liberals' answer is that the conservatives stood in the way of all the good the liberals would have accomplished if given a free hand! Every failure of the liberals to use big government to solve all of the citizens' problems and take care of them from cradle to grave is laid at the feet of anyone who wouldn't let the liberals with their genius ideas take the reins and get everything fixed and humming along in harmony and perfection. In fact, it's a perfect parallel for gun control! Gun control fails to control crime and criminals; but it's only because we've stood in the way of the liberals instituting strong enough gun control! >>>>>>>>>>>>>Every failure of the liberals to use big government to solve all of the citizens' problems and take care of them from cradle to grave is laid at the feet of anyone who wouldn't let the liberals with their genius ideas take the reins and get everything fixed and humming along in harmony and perfection. Big government, it is your candidates who have spent us into oblivion, I would think prudence would be to can the ole, "tax-n-spend liberals" rhetoric. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
birdlike 0 #39 August 31, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteDid a 4 mile walk through inner city Atlanta this morning. How's it looking to you? How many boarded up crack houses did you pass? I'm sure your "walk" had something to do wth MLK. Nope, had nothing to do with MLK. Zero boarded up crack houses. Well, it doesn't actually have to be boarded-up to be a crackhouse. I've seen and been made aware of crack houses in West Palm Beach; as well as crack apartments. You would not know they were that unless you knew they were that. QuoteQuoteDuring a depression? Hardly a suitable comparison. I disagree. It is *the* single most apt comparision. In terms of how it looks, perhaps. But not in terms of anything else, like causes, etc.Spirits fly on dangerous missions Imaginations on fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,107 #40 August 31, 2008 >Excuse me....who wrote the Emancipation Proclamation (both executive >orders)? Lincoln, as you know. Lincoln was a republican, which at that point was the more liberal party - as you also know. >The fact is that with the new deal war of poverty liberalism that started >in the 60s has not yielded the results claimed. It has indeed yielded some results. Starvation in the US is down since the 60's, and that's a good thing. There are more people than ever dependent on welfare, and that's a bad thing. As with most political solutions, it is far from perfect, and has created as many problems as it has solved. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #41 August 31, 2008 Quote As with most political solutions, it is far from perfect, and has created as many problems as it has solved. Ever make you wonder what would happen if the government didn't try to "help" all the time? So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
birdlike 0 #42 August 31, 2008 Quote>Excuse me....who wrote the Emancipation Proclamation (both executive >orders)? Lincoln, as you know. Lincoln was a republican, which at that point was the more liberal party - as you also know. Yes, just as the party we now call "liberals" are anything but liberal, since they see the People as subservient to, and dependent upon, the State.Spirits fly on dangerous missions Imaginations on fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,107 #43 August 31, 2008 >Ever make you wonder what would happen if the government didn't try to >"help" all the time? If you eliminated all forms of assistance? Some people who rely on the government would die, some would do better. As with any such government solution, it would have its pluses and minuses. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,107 #44 August 31, 2008 >Yes, just as the party we now call "liberals" . . . Ah. Well, there's your problem - there is no political party called "liberal." We have democrats and republicans, a few others (like libertarians.) Democrats are no more philosophically liberal than republicans are fiscally conservative. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
birdlike 0 #45 August 31, 2008 Quote >Yes, just as the party we now call "liberals" . . . Ah. Well, there's your problem - there is no political party called "liberal." We have democrats and republicans, a few others (like libertarians.) Democrats are no more philosophically liberal ... You're right; except for the ones you meet, the ones you talk to, the ones who vote, and the ones who run for office. Spirits fly on dangerous missions Imaginations on fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #46 August 31, 2008 Quotewhen there are several different TYPES of liberalism??? for example: the main problem with the Taliban government (& others like it) is that they weren't liberal enough. Fuck yeah ! I get bashed with "liberal" al the time for being somewhere to the left of Dick Cheney. It's bullshit, but usually I respond with "liberal, shmiberal" and present my case. In a lot of ways I surprise myself with how practical and even conservative I've become. But that's CONSERVATIVE, not single party partei, goose stepping authoritarian. And in other ways I'm still liberal. Because the state needs to do more than JUST provide for the common security. There are some functions (education and health f'rinstance) that need to be provided for at the public expense, because they may not be profitable for the private sector, but are nonetheless necessary. Unless you want an ever growing population of ignorant savages with HIV because they still think it's just a gay disease, to cite one concrete example. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
birdlike 0 #47 August 31, 2008 Quote Because the state needs to do more than JUST provide for the common security. There are some functions (education and health f'rinstance) that need to be provided for at the public expense, because they may not be profitable for the private sector, but are nonetheless necessary. Unless you want an ever growing population of ignorant savages with HIV because they still think it's just a gay disease, to cite one concrete example. Gee, I was overjoyed when I read the news today and found that they've reversed the decades-old trend of INCREASING THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WITH HIV and AIDS!! Finally, some actual progress, instead of running to stand still, or worse, backsliding! Finally something bad in the world, that's getting not as bad! I said to myself, "WOOT WOOT! Another victory for government programs and taxation for the benefit of the public! A declining rate of a deadly disease! Another victory!" And then I woke up, and read that as liberal as NYC is, the rate of increase of new HIV cases is FUCKING [I][B]TRIPLE[/I][/B] THAT OF THE REST OF THE COUNTRY!! TRIPLE!! I said TRIPLE Despite the "best efforts" of government, plus private concerns and educational non-profits, etc., NYC has managed to TRIPLE the national HIV infection rate! Tell us again how essential it is that government stick its nose into every fucking aspect of modern life. Are you going to tell us that the NYC/state/fedgov kept it DOWN to "TRIPLE," whereas it would otherwise have been, say, "QUINTUPLE" Spirits fly on dangerous missions Imaginations on fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 210 #48 August 31, 2008 Zero boarded up crack houses. So your walk stuck to the nicer neighborhoods. In order to have cogniznance of what the situation is like in states lacking the institutions and infrastructure of the US and western world. That's what it looks like. Have you visited Jamaica? An excellent education system graduates people with no place to work. They have an infrastructure system no one can afford. Deplorable housing. Huge crime rates. Try as they might the government cannot change the plight of its people and in fact are probably making the situation worse. My point? People don't appreciate things that are given to them, only what they've earned and worked for. Yet some in this country think the answer is to just give more. Government entitlements have created a huge class of people who just wait for the check on the 3rd of the month, have kids so they can get a raise, and operate an underground economy that contributes zip. You know the saying, the definition of insanity...Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #49 August 31, 2008 QuoteQuote Yes. In addition to pointing out that radical Islamists are the antithesis of liberalism, the track record of liberalism has afforded the world individual rights, rule of law (versus Divine right of Kings), freedom of speech, freedom of reading material, market economics, the concept of private property, child labor laws, decrease in poverty rates (compare poverty rates of the 1800s in the US when estimates range from 50-75%+ of nation living in poverty to the last 50 years when it varies ~8-12%; decrease in poverty correlates with decrease in crime & increase in GDP), veterans benefits (e.g., Roosevelt’s original GI Bill) … & the weekend. Those are all products of liberalism. VR/Marg Yes, those are all the products of CLASSICAL LIBERALISM. NOT modern, big-government, Democrat party liberalism. There is really no point to calling them liberals anymore, which is why I typically use the term "leftist," not "liberal." The difference between liberals and today's leftists is stark, the gulf between them enormous. This was the whole POINT of my original post, which apparently has gone right over the heads of you and Gawain, etc. There are different TYPES of liberalism!! There are liberals (like me) who believe in free market capitalism, personal responsibility, limitations on government regulation, and are pro-gun rights. so you've got the big government liberals, and also you've got small government, or classical liberals. DIFFERENT TYPES OF LIBERALISM!! THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT!! One further demonstration of the senselessness of liberal-bashing: Even the most ardent liberal-bashers will believe (deep down) that the problem with Taliban-style regimes is that they are, guess what......NOT LIBERAL ENOUGH!!! Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,107 #50 August 31, 2008 >You're right; except for the ones you meet, the ones you talk to, >the ones who vote, and the ones who run for office. You have (quite accidentally, I'm sure) said something good about democrats! You should flip-flop immediately lest your record of denigrating them become besmirched. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites