airdvr 210
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nerdgirl 0
QuoteQuoteQuoteLiberal policies are almost allways in direct conflict with prevailing economic theories.
What do you think is the prevailing economic theory?
Since the day of Adam Smith, liberal economic theories have prevailed in the capitalistic world.
Liberal economic theories do not equate to liberal political/socialist ideals.
Socialist does not equal liberal. That is just as in err as saying conservative equals fascist. Neither is correct and it limits useful dialogue.
QuoteAdam Smith's being the "founder" of free market economics has been possible, in fact, only from limiting government intervention.
Adam Smith's work is liberal economic theory.
Before Smith, the predominant belief was that without poverty people would not want to work and that everyone would be lazy and pursue leisure (as did many aristocrats who owned virtually all of the property -- because remember before liberalism the concept of private property was extremely limited). The predominant view among English conservatives at Smith's time was that the poor were poor because God meant them to be so. It's also connected to Protestant work ethic, i.e., God looked with favor upon people of wealth and success in business.
Otoh, Smith, asserted that more wealth to common people would benefit the nation's economy and society as a whole - the invisable hand. He proposed market economics as the economic policy to accomplish that. Smith proposed *limited* intervention not *no* intervention.
VR/Marg
Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying
Gawain 0
QuoteSocialist does not equal liberal.
Not in literal terms, but the reality is otherwise. The liberal political mindset now consistently seeks to funnel as much as possible through government oversight, regardless of mandate.
The argument could be made that "true" communism is in fact very conservative. However, as you point out it's a matter of perspective.
QuoteQuoteAdam Smith's being the "founder" of free market economics has been possible, in fact, only from limiting government intervention.
Adam Smith's work is liberal economic theory.
I don't dispute that, I said that liberal economic theory does not equate to liberal political theory.
QuoteHe proposed market economics as the economic policy to accomplish that. Smith proposed *limited* intervention not *no* intervention.
That's what I said...
So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
nerdgirl 0
QuoteQuoteDid a 4 mile walk through inner city Atlanta this morning.
How's it looking to you? How many boarded up crack houses did you pass? I'm sure your "walk" had something to do wth MLK.
Nope, had nothing to do with MLK.
Zero boarded up crack houses.
QuoteQuoteQuoteI'll bet most people on this board haven't been near those areas in a long time, if ever.
Lived in South Central Los Angeles during the 1992 riots. When I Washington DC I frequently stay in northeast quad, near North Capitol NE.
You don't live there now though do you. Why is that?
Job. Don't live in the suburbs, rural area, Outer Mongolia, or Oslo either.
QuoteQuoteMy question is how many people (1) have seen rural and urban povery outside of the US and seen the deleterious impact on those nations, I'm confident there are quite a few; how that group intersects/overlaps with the most outspoken critics of western liberalism is unknown) and (2) how many people remember or have any knowledge of history of what the US was like in the 1930s?
During a depression? Hardly a suitable comparison.
I disagree. It is *the* single most apt comparision.
I would argue that it's the lack of cognizance of history -- our own history -- that underlies much of the argument against the New Deal programs.
QuoteWhy are we talking about living conditions outside the US?
In order to have cogniznance of what the situation is like in states lacking the institutions and infrastructure of the US and western world. That's what it looks like.
VR/Marg
Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying
billvon 3,107
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>I don't need to bash liberalism, their track record speaks volumes.
Yeah. Those idiot libs that got rid of slavery didn't think for a second about all those poor farmers they destroyed. Typical. And the Bill of Rights! I suppose the liberals that came up with that nonsense thought everyone would just join hands and sing KumBayAh.
Yeah. Those idiot libs that got rid of slavery didn't think for a second about all those poor farmers they destroyed. Typical. And the Bill of Rights! I suppose the liberals that came up with that nonsense thought everyone would just join hands and sing KumBayAh.
nerdgirl 0
QuoteQuoteAdam Smith's being the "founder" of free market economics has been possible, in fact, only from limiting government intervention.
Adam Smith's work is liberal economic theory.
I don't dispute that, I said that liberal economic theory does not equate to liberal political theory.
What do you think liberal political theory is?
Thus far most (all?) of the criticism in this thread have re-stated a single, innacurate highly partisan aphorism.
Conservative political theory does not equate to liberal economic theory. Both political theories are subsets of the liberal economic theory. In the 1980s, economic policy wonks of the conservative political movement adapted/adopted neo-liberalism.
QuoteHe proposed market economics as the economic policy to accomplish that. Smith proposed *limited* intervention not *no* intervention.
That's what I said...
Then why did you disagree with me?
That's what liberal policies espouse. Late 20th/early 21st Century conservative policies want less or none.
VR/Marg
Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying
Lucky... 0
QuoteI don't need to bash liberalism, their track record speaks volumes. Social programs cracking under the weight of bureaucracy in Europe, Canada and America's largest cities. Costs for education and healthcare choked because of well-meaning, but misguided liberal policies that hinder development and real creative thinking, and choice.
Given that, I simply challenge the ideas and hope the light begins to shine in...
...it will eventually.
As discussed in other threads, liberalism freed the slaves, fought the Britts and gave Rosa Parks the right to sit on the bus. Liberalism made/makes this country great, unless you like Republican Naziism.
I agree with the rest, keep shoveling off trillions to our military when there is no enemy and shun social programs where there is dire need - it makes great sense to me.
Lucky... 0
QuoteQuoteEGAD.. dont suggest that....its all the fringe right has and its the foundation of their religion. Most of them have been brought up on it by right wing hate radio since the early 90's. Lush Rimjobs success has been based on painting ANYONE who does not follow their NEO CON religion as a"liberal.
Don't upset the liberal. But feel free to call any conservative a neo con.
I'm a conservative southern boy with a great family, a strong marriage, and a steady income. I believe in God and support the President no matter what party he's from. Good lord, I'm a fucking crazy ass neo con.
I'm sure you supported Clinton....whatever
Lucky... 0
QuoteIt doesn't matter what "type" of liberalism you're into...the basic premise is that "government should take care of you because you're not capable of doing it yourself".
We've had 50+ years of government handouts and what has it gotten us? Take a drive into any innercity neighborhood near you and take a good look around. That is, if you have the balls to go.
I'll bet most people on this board haven't been near those areas in a long time, if ever. Go see what your dollars have been spent on...see the effects of "government taking care of it's citizens".
Are you joking? Last 50 years have yielded handouts to the military indust complex maybe, not social svs, esp the last 30.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I'll bet most people on this board haven't been near those areas in a long time, if ever. Go see what your dollars have been spent on...see the effects of "government taking care of it's citizens".
What tax dollars? They're going to the military complex and the debt.
Lucky... 0
QuoteQuoteWe've had 50+ years of government handouts and what has it gotten us? Take a drive into any innercity neighborhood near you and take a good look around. That is, if you have the balls to go.
That is only because we haven't taken enough from the corporations and small business owners that provide the jobs, innovation, and economic force in this company.
We need to take more from them, make bigger social programs, bigger government.
The double speak refrence is ironic... I heard the democrats are going to increase the chocolate ration if Obama is elected.
Yea, that trickle down thing is great....worked so well for Hoover and Reagan, not to mention Bush.
Lucky... 0
QuoteQuoteIsn't it kind of stupid to bash "liberals" or "liberalism"
Stupid? Maybe.
Fun? YES!
I'm with ya, neo-con brother, slavery should still be here and we should never have fought the britts.
nerdgirl 0
QuoteAs discussed in other threads, liberalism freed the slaves, fought the Britts and gave Rosa Parks the right to sit on the bus.
Concur strongly.
QuoteLiberalism made/makes this country great, unless you like Republican Naziism.
![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]"){kind=small}
While I have no doubt that there exist among the 90M or so Republicans (or conservatives) in the US a few who do espouse Nazi ideas/neo-Aryan/anti-government ideas, the overwhelmingly vast majority don't. VR/Marg
Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying
Destinations by Roxanne
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